Studying the Bible without thinking critically

[stunnedbygrace]

Not to mention, if we were perfect in keeping the law, why did Jesus have to die? We strive for perfection and repent immediately if we sin as we, well have an advocate with the Father...

Whenever someone wants to make it all about visible sin, you can be sure they are in sin hidden from men. Some men's sins are visible and some men's sins are hidden in their heart. But keeping the outside of the cup shiny will never clean the inside of the cup. Jesus says, clean the inside and the outside will just be clean as well. But the opposite is not true, so what good is it to focus on other mens visible sins, when your own inward sins are not hidden from God? Jesus ate with those whose sins were visible. He also ate with one man whose sins were hidden from everyone but Him.

 

[Nancy]

Whenever someone wants to make it all about visible sin, you can be sure they are in sin hidden from men. Some men's sins are visible and some men's sins are hidden in their heart. But keeping the outside of the cup shiny will never clean the inside of the cup. Jesus says, clean the inside and the outside will just be clean as well. But the opposite is not true, so what good is it to focus on other mens visible sins, when your own inward sins are not hidden from God? Jesus ate with those whose sins were visible. He also ate with one man whose sins were hidden from everyone but Him.

White washed, walking tombs. And they don't know it. The outward, seen sins to me, anyhow, are the easiest to overcome but, with myself, it is in the thought area, anger and unfairness and the like. These are the ones nobody sees but God and, He is still in the business of forgiving! Praise God for that or I would be in big trouble It all starts in the mind IMHO...

 

[Nancy]

In other words, you would need to be dead. And not just theoretically dead or supposing yourself to be dead.

No other way to do it, I would say.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No other way to do it, I would say.

If there wasn't a way for us to be crucified, dead, then we would not have been told to pick up our cross and follow Him. Is it a very narrow way? Yes. Are there few who find it? Yes. But is it impossible? All things are possible with God. So it must be completely by trust. There are 3 enemies - the world, our own flesh, and the devil. Are we to crucify the world or the devil? Of course not.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And Merry Christmas, my brave sister.

 

[shnarkle]

To keep the law perfectly, you would need to never have anger in your heart. To never have anger in your heart, you would need to be completely without any pride or self interest.

To keep the law perfectly, God must create a new creature, one with a new heart to keep God's commandments. This is explicitly what the New Covenant is all about. The new creation, or new creature in Christ is created with a new heart to keep God's commandments perfectly. See Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10 where God explicitly points out that he will unite Israel and Judah, and give them a new heart for on other reason other than to keep His commandments.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To keep the law perfectly, God must create a new creature, one with a new heart to keep God's commandments. This is explicitly what the New Covenant is all about. The new creation, or new creature in Christ is created with a new heart to keep God's commandments perfectly. See Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10 where God explicitly points out that he will unite Israel and Judah, and give them a new heart for on other reason other than to keep His commandments.

So your testimony is that you obey the law perfectly.

 

[shnarkle]

Not to mention, if we were perfect in keeping the law, why did Jesus have to die?

This is putting the cart before the horse. The law is divided up between those who keep it and those who don't. To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law which requires sacrifice to cover one's sins, but when one has come under the New Covenant, "there remains no more sacrifice for sin". Sacrifice only covers sins committed under the Old Covenant. Jesus only has to offer his life for those who are under the curse of the law. He died "while we were yet still sinners". Once one is saved, and born into the New Covenant, there is no need for sacrifice because those who "walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh".

We strive for perfection and repent immediately if we sin as we, well have an advocate with the Father...

That is only while under the Old Covenant. Those terms do not apply to the New Covenant.

 

[shnarkle]

So your testimony is that you obey the law perfectly.

Strawman argument, and a Non Sequitur. Where did I say that? This is also an Ad Hominem. This thread is about studying the bible, not about studying me.

 

[shnarkle]

From the start, I think this is a bad idea.

this issue goes way beyond whether or not a specific verse should be read literally or may also be interpreted figuratively; this happens when people are either afraid to think too much about what they are reading, or they never learned how to think critically.

One of the things I run into repteadely with regards to those who are "afraid to think too much about what they are reading" is they will immediately focus on me rather than what I've posted or pointed out. For example, I point out that under the New Covenant, the new creature in Christ does not sin. Instead of looking at the evidence from scripture, they immediately ask if I no longer sin. They simply can't look at the text itself to confirm what it states. Even if they do, they will not accept it because they have been admitting that they sin, and they firmly believe they are no longer part of the Old Covenant. This is what they've been taught, and it sounds good to them, so it doesn't matter what the texts state anymore.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sorry, I can't help it. When someone says the new birth is to be given a heart that obeys perfectly, it has not been my experience. I still have moments of anger, doubt, fear. Its not that I am examining you, but rather myself.

 

[shnarkle]

Sorry, I can't help it. When someone says the new birth is to be given a heart that obeys perfectly, it has not been my experience.

Most people are honest enough to admit that. The problem is that most people don't seem willing to look at what the bible actually states. I provided the relevant passages. Did you read them?

I still have moments of anger, doubt, fear. Its not that I am examining you, but rather myself.

You're using the wrong pronouns then. Regardless, it doesn't advance the discussion to ignore what the texts actually state, and begin to focus instead upon ourselves. This is the antithesis of the gospel message.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Most people are honest enough to admit that. The problem is that most people don't seem willing to look at what the bible actually states. I provided the relevant passages. Did you read them?


You're using the wrong pronouns then. Regardless, it doesn't advance the discussion to ignore what the texts actually state, and begin to focus instead upon ourselves. This is the antithesis of the gospel message.

Yes, I read the 3 passages. None of them said that I keep Gods law perfectly.

 

[shnarkle]

Yes, I read the 3 passages. None of them said that I keep Gods law perfectly.

Did you notice that this thread isn't about you? Did you notice that the bible isn't about you or me either? Did you notice that the passages explicitly point out that under the New Covenant God places his laws into the heart of the new creation so that they may keep his commandments?

Under the Old Covenant, the children of Israel make a decision to keep God's law to the best of their ability. Paul points out that a methodology based upon "will or effort" Rom.9:16 is destined to fail. You and I can try as hard as we want, and we will only fail. To try is to fail. Success can only come from God's promise, by grace through faith, and not your faith or my faith in Christ, but the faith OF Christ implanted in the new creation by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that a professing Christian isn't keeping God's law is beside the point, and doesn't begin to negate God's law, or his promise. Paul points this out as well in Romans 3:3

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Did you notice that this thread isn't about you? Did you notice that the bible isn't about you or me either? Did you notice that the passages explicitly point out that under the New Covenant God places his laws into the heart of the new creation so that they may keep his commandments?

Did you notice that none of that, or those verses, states that being given that new heart means that we obey God law perfectly (as you stated)?

 

[Nancy]

This is putting the cart before the horse. The law is divided up between those who keep it and those who don't. To be under the law means to be under the condemnation of the law which requires sacrifice to cover one's sins, but when one has come under the New Covenant, "there remains no more sacrifice for sin". Sacrifice only covers sins committed under the Old Covenant. Jesus only has to offer his life for those who are under the curse of the law. He died "while we were yet still sinners". Once one is saved, and born into the New Covenant, there is no need for sacrifice because those who "walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh".



That is only while under the Old Covenant. Those terms do not apply to the New Covenant.

Nancy said: "We strive for perfection, and repent immediately if we sin as we, well have an advocate with the Father..."

Schnarkle said:
"That is only while under the Old Covenant. Those terms do not apply to the New Covenant."
"Is not Jesus our advocate? 1 John 2:1, NASB: "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;"
Other New Testament passages, such as Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25, also describe Jesus in the role of an advocate for believers.

 

[Nancy]

And Merry Christmas, my brave sister.

Merry Christmas to you as well and, brave? Maybe more like foolish, lol...guess this is where the rubber hits the road I'll see the changes in some towards me. Meh, nothing new

 

[Nancy]

want some aluminum with that?
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=fluoride+aluminum+brain&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
hey, i can almost import a Gsearch
"scholarly articles on fluoride aluminum brain"
(google scholar!)

Hmmm, maybe that's why my family is crazy? My mom cooked in big aluminum pots

 

[shnarkle]

Nancy said: "We strive for perfection, and repent immediately if we sin as we, well have an advocate with the Father..."

Schnarkle said:
"That is only while under the Old Covenant. Those terms do not apply to the New Covenant."
"Is not Jesus our advocate?

Of course, but there is no need for him to advocate for us when he is indwelling within causing us to "walk after the spirit". Does Jesus advocate for himself? Of course not. He's approved by God, and when Christ comes to indwell within the new creature in the New Covenant, there is no need to advocate for a heart that is sinless.

1 John 2:1, NASB: "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;"

Note that both covenants are presented in one sentence, and the only time Christ is necessary as an advocate is when one sins. That isn't the case when they come under the parameters of the New Covenant.

Other New Testament passages, such as Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25, also describe Jesus in the role of an advocate for believers.

Yes, I am not denying that Christ is our advocate while we are under the terms of the Old Covenant. Anyone who sins has an advocate in Christ, but that isn't the case under the New Covenant which I have already pointed out.

 

[Nancy]

Of course, but there is no need for him to advocate for us when he is indwelling within causing us to "walk after the spirit". Does Jesus advocate for himself? Of course not. He's approved by God, and when Christ comes to indwell within the new creature in the New Covenant, there is no need to advocate for a heart that is sinless.



Note that both covenants are presented in one sentence, and the only time Christ is necessary as an advocate is when one sins. That isn't the case when they come under the parameters of the New Covenant.



Yes, I am not denying that Christ is our advocate while we are under the terms of the Old Covenant. Anyone who sins has an advocate in Christ, but that isn't the case under the New Covenant which I have already pointed out.

Was Paul not speaking to Christians, who are under the New Covenant?