love your enemy?

[Jenniferdiana3637]

Well, i'm not sure that I understand your question as the answer is quite clear, Jesus was contrasting former OT principles, with their true and greater meaning.
i.e. Don't commit adultery, ...but rather, don't even lust at a married women.
Observe the Sabbath, ...but not at the cost of one's well being.
Don't murder, ...but more so, do not even hate.
Do not break a vow, ...instead, don't make a vow.

Again, he even says further down the sermon, that loving one's enemy surpasses that of those who are evil, and only love those who love them (there is no sacrifice in this relationship, their love is reciprocated) . God's children do as God does, that is, we hate God, yet he loved us. Christians sacrifice themselves for others, i.e. we don't expect payment when we lend, we don't invite those who can only invite us back, when we see someone down, we lift up without expecting a reward, and thus, we love those who do not love us back.

But, don't be naive, know what you're doing when you do this, that is, know why Jesus said it. Because if you love those who spit on you, and abuse you, and you don't handle it with confidence and wisdom, it will have an adverse affect. Just like turning the other cheek. These are not principles for bleeding hearts or the naive. They are profound, and meant to be executed with the utmost wisdom and understanding. Again, the wrong disposition when attempting these maxims, will be consequential to both parties, and not beneficial as intended.

Matthew 10:16

 

[DPMartin]

Well, i'm not sure that I understand your question as the answer is quite clear, Jesus was contrasting former OT principles, with their true and greater meaning.
i.e. Don't commit adultery, ...but rather, don't even lust at a married women.
Observe the Sabbath, ...but not at the cost of one's well being.
Don't murder, ...but more so, do not even hate.
Do not break a vow, ...instead, don't make a vow.

Again, he even says further down the sermon, that loving one's enemy surpasses that of those who are evil, and only love those who love them (there is no sacrifice in this relationship, their love is reciprocated) . God's children do as God does, that is, we hate God, yet he loved us. Christians sacrifice themselves for others, i.e. we don't expect payment when we lend, we don't invite those who can only invite us back, when we see someone down, we lift up without expecting a reward, and thus, we love those who do not love us back.

But, don't be naive, know what you're doing when you do this, that is, know why Jesus said it. Because if you love those who spit on you, and abuse you, and you don't handle it with confidence and wisdom, it will have an adverse affect. Just like turning the other cheek. These are not principles for bleeding hearts or the naive. They are profound, and meant to be executed with the utmost wisdom and understanding. Again, the wrong disposition when attempting these maxims, will be consequential to both parties, and not beneficial as intended.

what sacrifice? why is there a sacrifice required?
how about I cut to the chase and just slit my throat in public claiming its a sacrifice for Jesus.

also, what adverse effect? adverse effect on what and for what purpose?

 

[DPMartin]

Mmm...what did I imply...?

why, don't you know?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

why, don't you know?

Do I know what you think I was implying? No, I don't know what you think I was implying...

 

[DPMartin]

Because in the Sermon on the Mount, the entire teaching was meant to prepare His followers to endure persecution, given that they would walk in a greater righteousness than Jewish leadership, and thus be hated and despised by them and violently opposed. If His disciples should be overcome by this hatred in the church era (after He left), it would quench the Holy Spirit among them that was prophesied to be poured out after Pentecost, so the commandment was to love their enemies instead and not allow this to happen.

Very interesting question actually, and thank you for the insightful post : )

though you're closer of postings so far, for one, the walk in heaven is greater than the walk in the flesh, of which the flesh can't do what can be done in the Life of Christ. two, its about the spreading of the message in the ministry of grace, many of the Lord's best solders were once His sworn enemies, like Apostle Paul for instance. you don't get those souls with a blow for blow or tit for tat exchange. for example, it had to be a tough pill to swallow for Peter and company when Paul shows up to participate in the ministry entrusted to them.

also one should understand that nothing overcomes the Holy Spirit its the Presence of God with you. how can anything overcome the Almighty? but granted the Holy Spirit will withdraw itself from or disregard stupidity and wickedness. that which is the Light walks in the Light only, not darkness.

its not a religious aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. its simple common sense to accomplish God's purpose of restoring the Faithful to Himself. if you value the Life of Christ then you don't value this life in the flesh, within reason of course.

 

[FHII]

People who are as the good Samaritan was.

Luke 10:27-30
10:27. He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." 29. But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30. In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead....

As I have been casually watching this thread, I was hoping this would come up. It's a very interesting conversation between a lawyer (doesn't that say all?) Who was looking to trap Jesus, and Jesus.

There is a great revelation in this parable that people miss. Who was the Samaritan? The neighbor? Who was it that had mercy on the man when the priest and levite wouldn't? Who was it who cared for him and said to the inn keeper that if his care required more money, that Samaritan would return and cover the expenses?

Who actually did that spiritually? Jesus himself! So who is our neighbor?

 

[DNB]

what sacrifice? why is there a sacrifice required?
how about I cut to the chase and just slit my throat in public claiming its a sacrifice for Jesus.

also, what adverse effect? adverse effect on what and for what purpose?

Sacrifice meaning taking the good with the bad, or just accepting the bad. Some people only get in relations providing that something is in it for them.
If one's attempts to turn the other cheek without knowing why God intended this to be the best policy, the expected results, which is to expose the culprit's sin, and keep yourself innocent, may backfire, and instead, the guilty party may become empowered to insult and abuse further.

 

[DNB]

As I have been casually watching this thread, I was hoping this would come up. It's a very interesting conversation between a lawyer (doesn't that say all?) Who was looking to trap Jesus, and Jesus.

There is a great revelation in this parable that people miss. Who was the Samaritan? The neighbor? Who was it that had mercy on the man when the priest and levite wouldn't? Who was it who cared for him and said to the inn keeper that if his care required more money, that Samaritan would return and cover the expenses?

Who actually did that spiritually? Jesus himself! So who is our neighbor?

Agreed, good point!

 

[justbyfaith]

Sacrifice meaning taking the good with the bad, or just accepting the bad. Some people only get in relations providing that something is in it for them.
If one's attempts to turn the other cheek without knowing why God intended this to be the best policy, the expected results, which is to expose the culprit's sin, and keep yourself innocent, may backfire, and instead, the guilty party may become empowered to insult and abuse further.

Which does not mean that the believer ought not to turn the other cheek.

We obey what the word of the Lord says whether it produces the desired results or not.

 

[amadeus]

thanks but not really

the Jews better said Children of Israel slaughtered many of their enemy I do believe God told them that their enemies were His enemies back then. Moses' day Joshua's day they wiped out many by their own hand according to the instructions of God when King Saul didn't kill everything that was written, God sent Samuel to confront Saul on the matter and then God told Samuel He had a replacement in mind for Saul we know as King David who killed his 10 thousands. from Samuels documents on the Lord God was referred to as the Lord of Hosts, hosts meaning armies.

Israel was for the most part if its history was surrounded by hostiles and conquered by a few even to day they are surrounded by hostiles, and even to day the Lord delivers them victory that would be against the odds such as the six day war.

so no that doesn't seem to be the reason for Jesus' preaching of love your enemies.

Discovering the enemies of the children of Israel and what to do with them was always a black and white thing in the OT. They were to kill all of the "-ites" specifically named. In Deut 7:1-2 seven peoples are named in the Promised Land to be killed. Deut 20:10-18 lists only 6, excluding the Girgashites, but provides more detail on how they were to deal with enemies or potential enemies. The ones nearby, that is in the Promised Land itself [the 6 or 7] are to be exterminated, killing men, women, children and cattle, that is each and every creature that lives and breathes. With other enemies not so close, and not among those named, only the adult males were to be killed. The women, children and cattle were to be retained alive for themselves as spoils of war.

The "-ites" 6 or 7 types and shadows for us could correspond to the abominations named here:

“These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.” Prov 6:16-19

The children of Israel were to kill the peoples within in the Promised Land completely. We are to kill the abominations of which are within the "old man" of each of us described by Paul.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:6

Peoples outside the Promised Land were given an opportunity to make peace with the Israelites. Similarly we give those outside of us [perhaps the Body of Christ?] opportunity to make peace with us.

We still are to hate our enemies but only the ones God clearly identifies to us through the Holy Spirit. Our primary enemies that we know are on the inside of us. In the OT God through His prophets, priests, judges & kings [Moses, Joshua, David and others] let everyone know who their primary enemies were. Through the anointed writers of scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit we are similarly given to know who our enemies are. Enemies outside of me [within other persons] should also be approached in peace because some or all of them have hope. We are to love them until and if we are led by the Holy Spirit to understand that there is nothing to love and we are to hate them.

God knows from the beginning who to love and who to hate. We do not!

"I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness" Malachi 1:2-3

[As a footnote to this, we need to remember what women and children are spiritually and treat them accordingly. Someone acting in the role of a man {who should be God's ministers speaking His Word (or not)... speaking as Head} (which could include physical women), as God sees it, but who actually opposes God and God's people (false prophets, pastors ministers, et al) is to be hated and killed (spiritually, not physically).

Someone in the role of a woman or child {who should be God's people or the subjected Body of Christ ... not the Head} (which should include any immature person of any physical age or gender) should receive mercy among those acting in the roles of spiritual men but opposing God should receive mercy and be trained hopefully to stand on the Lord's side. This subject I mention here because it has helped me and may help others to understand the lessons available from the OT if and when they are able to understand them]

 

[DNB]

Which does not mean that the believer ought not to turn the other cheek.

We obey what the word of the Lord says whether it produces the desired results or not.

No one said to disobey the Lord, I was explaining the adverse affects that DP Martin asked me about.
And, no we don't just do something regardless of the results. For if you're not reaching the Lord's objective, then you are not understanding why he said to do it.
So don't teach to adhere blindly, for again, the adverse results does nobody any good. You're trying to sound pious, at the cost of actually acting pious. I'd rather see someone deflect a blow, than to attempt to turn the other cheek so that he gets even a worse beating, and creates a worse monster out of the culprit.
In other words, run away if you have to, it's better than mocking the Lord's precept & wisdom with a false and inefficacious, humility and strength.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one said to disobey the Lord,

Yes, you did.

You said that if it doesn't accomplish the desired purpose, we ought not to obey the Lord by turning the other cheek.

I would say that we ought to obey the Lord regardless of whether it accomplishes the result we want or not. And in saying this, I am not trying to look pious.

How is one to know what the result will be, until after they have obeyed or disobeyed?

Therefore we ought to obey, hoping for the desired result; but not stipulating our obedience on getting the desired result.

For we cannot know the result until after we have obeyed or disobeyed.

Therefore I say, unequivocally obey.

 

[mjrhealth]

Discovering the enemies of the children of Israel and what to do with them was always a black and white thing in the OT. They were to kill all of the "-ites" specifically named. In Deut 7:1-2 seven peoples are named in the Promised Land to be killed. Deut 20:10-18 lists only 6, excluding the Girgashites, but provides more detail on how they were to deal with enemies or potential enemies. The ones nearby, that is in the Promised Land itself [the 6 or 7] are to be exterminated, killing men, women, children and cattle, that is each and every creature that lives and breathes. With other enemies not so close, and not among those named, only the adult males were to be killed. The women, children and cattle were to be retained alive for themselves as spoils of war.

The "-ites" 6 or 7 types and shadows for us could correspond to the abominations named here:

“These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.” Prov 6:16-19

The children of Israel were to kill the peoples within in the Promised Land completely. We are to kill the abominations of which are within the "old man" of each of us described by Paul.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:6

Peoples outside the Promised Land were given an opportunity to make peace with the Israelites. Similarly we give those outside of us [perhaps the Body of Christ?] opportunity to make peace with us.

We still are to hate our enemies but only the ones God clearly identifies to us through the Holy Spirit. Our primary enemies that we know are on the inside of us. In the OT God through His prophets, priests, judges & kings [Moses, Joshua, David and others] let everyone know who their primary enemies were. Through the anointed writers of scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit we are similarly given to know who our enemies are. Enemies outside of me [within other persons] should also be approached in peace because some or all of them have hope. We are to love them until and if we are led by the Holy Spirit to understand that there is nothing to love and we are to hate them.

God knows from the beginning who to love and who to hate. We do not!

"I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness" Malachi 1:2-3

[As a footnote to this, we need to remember what women and children are spiritually and treat them accordingly. Someone acting in the role of a man {who should be God's ministers speaking His Word (or not)... speaking as Head} (which could include physical women), as God sees it, but who actually opposes God and God's people (false prophets, pastors ministers, et al) is to be hated and killed (spiritually, not physically).

Someone in the role of a woman or child {who should be God's people or the subjected Body of Christ ... not the Head} (which should include any immature person of any physical age or gender) should receive mercy among those acting in the roles of spiritual men but opposing God should receive mercy and be trained hopefully to stand on the Lord's side. This subject I mention here because it has helped me and may help others to understand the lessons available from the OT if and when they are able to understand them]

There is only one issue , how can perfect love Hate??, Pia and I have had this discussion so many times. Love trusts Jesus told her, so thats Nice I said, I trusted the one I love and I got beat up all over it. So than should I therefore put up my hand again to be beaten up again, maybe one day Ill get the answer to why we must.

 

[Jenniferdiana3637]

There is only one issue , how can perfect love Hate??, Pia and I have had this discussion so many times. Love trusts Jesus told her, so thats Nice I said, I trusted the one I love and I got beat up all over it. So than should I therefore put up my hand again to be beaten up again, maybe one day Ill get the answer to why we must.

That bad huh? Lol where they beat you up? But yeah I know what you mean..it's like forgiving someone who keeps hurting you over and over..I guess the best way is when you had enough..you make your peace with those people and not mess with them again..you know walk away and never come back...cause stuff like that just gets exhausting.,.i i mean I try to be patient with people or give them the benefit of the doubt and stuff but it's like when things seem to feel tidy and good, the bad comes back again which is really bad because that's like your emotions moving all over the place like some rollercoaster ride...
I guess you might as well put a permanent sticker on thier forehead that says forgiven because it seems like they never stop..lol I guess why mercy is needed to be shown cause it's people like that who probably need it the most ..and I'm starting to realize that....

 

[mjrhealth]

That bad huh? Lol where they beat you up? But yeah I know what you mean..it's like forgiving someone who keeps hurting you over and over..I guess the best way is when you had enough..you make your peace with those people and not mess with them again..you know walk away and never come back...cause stuff like that just gets exhausting.,.i i mean I try to be patient with people or give them the benefit of the doubt and stuff but it's like when things seem to feel tidy and good, the bad comes back again which is really bad because that's like your emotions moving all over the place like some rollercoaster..I guess you can just put a permanent sticker on thier forehead that says forgiven because it seems like they never stop..lol I guess why mercy is needed to be shown cause it's people like that who probably need it the most ..and I'm starting to realize that....

Its hard, but its what we must do.

God bless you

 

[Jenniferdiana3637]

Its hard, but its what we must do.

God bless you

I understand. I guess.

 

[Jenniferdiana3637]

Its hard, but its what we must do.

God bless you

But I know he is not just a God of mercy but one of justice also... And I think any enemy would use that excuse to get away with what they do or did...

 

[amadeus]

Yes, you did.

You said that if it doesn't accomplish the desired purpose, we ought not to obey the Lord by turning the other cheek.

I would say that we ought to obey the Lord regardless of whether it accomplishes the result we want or not. And in saying this, I am not trying to look pious.

How is one to know what the result will be, until after they have obeyed or disobeyed?

Therefore we ought to obey, hoping for the desired result; but not stipulating our obedience on getting the desired result.

For we cannot know the result until after we have obeyed or disobeyed.

Therefore I say, unequivocally obey.

"And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." I Sam 15:22

 

[amadeus]

There is only one issue , how can perfect love Hate??, Pia and I have had this discussion so many times. Love trusts Jesus told her, so thats Nice I said, I trusted the one I love and I got beat up all over it. So than should I therefore put up my hand again to be beaten up again, maybe one day Ill get the answer to why we must.

It is not so much that God directly hates anyone. Rather it is that He spoke His Word with regard to this before the foundation of the world. Men by their own actions or inactions invoke the spoken curses of the Word. God, the God who is Love, does not change. It is the man who has changed, by effectively moving away from God and giving the appearance in a word that men understand, hate...

 

[Base12]

What is Love?

Understand the answer to the above question first in order to answer yours.