love your enemy?

[DNB]

Yes, you did.

You said that if it doesn't accomplish the desired purpose, we ought not to obey the Lord by turning the other cheek.

I would say that we ought to obey the Lord regardless of whether it accomplishes the result we want or not. And in saying this, I am not trying to look pious.

How is one to know what the result will be, until after they have obeyed or disobeyed?

Therefore we ought to obey, hoping for the desired result; but not stipulating our obedience on getting the desired result.

For we cannot know the result until after we have obeyed or disobeyed.

Therefore I say, unequivocally obey.

Your are clearly not understanding the implications of the meaning, turn the other cheek. To disobey the command, is to retaliate. That is the only option that counts as disobedience, in the context of the meaning of the phrase. Because, to treat evil with evil, is a sin. That is the point to the command.
To run away, which I prescribed, as an example, is not a sin, in other words, there are alternative methods to deal with an aggressor, that are not sinful, but, all the same, may not have the same remedial affect as turning the other cheek does.
Turning the other cheek is an extremely profound concept, and requires a great deal of understanding, and strength to apply correctly. And when it is done with confidence and wisdom, it has a corrective influence on the malefactor. But, it can make things worse if one simply does it, because he's told that he's supposed to (you're not getting this part).
Again, to disobey, is to act in a way that is sinful, i never promoted that.
Casting out evil spirits, for example, was a mandate that Jesus gave his disciples, but when the seven sons of Sceva attempted it, it back-fired on them. For, they did not understand what they were doing. Same, with turning the other cheek.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

thanks but not really

the Jews better said Children of Israel slaughtered many of their enemy I do believe God told them that their enemies were His enemies back then. Moses' day Joshua's day they wiped out many by their own hand according to the instructions of God when King Saul didn't kill everything that was written, God sent Samuel to confront Saul on the matter and then God told Samuel He had a replacement in mind for Saul we know as King David who killed his 10 thousands. from Samuels documents on the Lord God was referred to as the Lord of Hosts, hosts meaning armies.

Israel was for the most part if its history was surrounded by hostiles and conquered by a few even to day they are surrounded by hostiles, and even to day the Lord delivers them victory that would be against the odds such as the six day war.

so no that doesn't seem to be the reason for Jesus' preaching of love your enemies.

God loves all men, (John 3:16) and did not tell the Jews to 'hate your enemy'. This hate came about as a misunderstanding on part of the Jews. Evidently when God told them to love their neighbor , the Jew assumed that "neighbor" referred only to their fellow Jewish brethren. They then wrongly implied that if they were to love their neighbor (fellow Jew) that meant they were to hate any non-Jew (see parable of the good Samaritan).

When the Jews disobeyed and turned from God, God allowed their enemies in and conquer them as a matter of judgment against them. The nation of Israel today has nothing to do with the Bible and the Jews enemies and hatred of men. In Romans 11 God cast off the Jews as His chosen people due to their continued reject of Him. Today Christians are God's chosen people, not Jews. The reason there is an Israel nation today is due to the United States and monetary and military aid the US has given to Israel over the years.

 

[Helen]

It is not so much that God directly hates anyone. Rather it is that He spoke His Word with regard to this before the foundation of the world. Men by their own actions or inactions invoke the spoken curses of the Word. God, the God who is Love, does not change. It is the man who has changed, by effectively moving away from God and giving the appearance in a word that men understand, hate...

John , we don't often disagree...but I can't see it as you do.

So you don't believe that God added a new covenant at the cross?
Even Jesus on the Mount said .." God said ( OT) blah blah , but I say unto you (NT) blah blah." There was a change ...

Rom 8.3-4 For what the law could not do, ( did God set the law by mistake..No, we know that He didn't, but He had a Plan) in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh ..( God did what man couldn't by sending Jesus what He knew that man could not do it...from the beginning )
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Because of Jesus , ✟ I don't believe God hates anyone...this is NT.
If He did, He would tell us to hate our enemies , but He says just the very opposite .

 

[justbyfaith]

To run away, which I prescribed, as an example, is not a sin, in other words, there are alternative methods to deal with an aggressor, that are not sinful, but, all the same, may not have the same remedial affect as turning the other cheek does.
Turning the other cheek is an extremely profound concept, and requires a great deal of understanding, and strength to apply correctly. And when it is done with confidence and wisdom, it has a corrective influence on the malefactor. But, it can make things worse if one simply does it, because he's told that he's supposed to (you're not getting this part).

I know that at two different times in my life I was struck on the face and turned the other cheek; and both times it had a remedial effect on the person who struck me. So I think that the only wisdom that you need concerning this behaviour is obedience. I did not do it in any special kind of way, I simply did it. Both times, the person felt convicted and did not strike me a second time. Therefore I would say that obedience is the only wisdom that you need regarding this. There is no special manner in which you can do it, so that the manner in which you do it would result in conviction: what results in conviction is merely the fact that you do it in the first place, period.

The reason there is an Israel nation today is due to the United States and monetary and military aid the US has given to Israel over the years.

Israel is a nation today because the Lord ordained that it would be a nation. It was reinstated in fulfillment of biblical prophecy (Isaiah 66:8).

 

[mjrhealth]

It is not so much that God directly hates anyone. Rather it is that He spoke His Word with regard to this before the foundation of the world. Men by their own actions or inactions invoke the spoken curses of the Word. God, the God who is Love, does not change. It is the man who has changed, by effectively moving away from God and giving the appearance in a word that men understand, hate...

This comes from too much bible reading and not enough time with Christ, Pia and I actually are quiet surprised how far you have come from reading the bible, so many get it all wrong. Clearly you do listen to Him, or you could never have got as far as you have, but now He must get the world out of us, and He must fill us with His truth. Jesus can use the bible to teach us many things, just as satan can use the bible to keep us from Him. the truth is in Jesus alone, even the bible states that.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so time with Him is teh best time, which is why Im back, need to focus on Him. Too much time fighting battles.

 

[DNB]

I know that at two different times in my life I was struck on the face and turned the other cheek; and both times it had a remedial effect on the person who struck me. So I think that the only wisdom that you need concerning this behaviour is obedience. I did not do it in any special kind of way, I simply did it. Both times, the person felt convicted and did not strike me a second time. Therefore I would say that obedience is the only wisdom that you need regarding this. There is no special manner in which you can do it, so that the manner in which you do it would result in conviction: what results in conviction is merely the fact that you do it in the first place, period.



Israel is a nation today because the Lord ordained that it would be a nation. It was reinstated in fulfillment of biblical prophecy (Isaiah 66:8).

Well, JBF, that, to me, is absolutely great to hear. ...and I'm sorry for continuing to be contentious, but I still have to say that your conviction to be obedient was based on an inner wisdom. You either trusted God enough from past experiences, or just from understanding his word, and therefore you employed turning the other cheek with the correct amount of integrity and fortitude, ...whether you realize it or not. Otherwise, it would have resulted disastrously.
Sorry, I take no other stand on this.

 

[friend of]

we are commanded to overcome evil with good, hate with love.

 

[amadeus]

John , we don't often disagree...but I can't see it as you do.

So you don't believe that God added a new covenant at the cross?
Even Jesus on the Mount said .." God said ( OT) blah blah , but I say unto you (NT) blah blah." There was a change ...

Rom 8.3-4 For what the law could not do, ( did God set the law by mistake..No, we know that He didn't, but He had a Plan) in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh ..( God did what man couldn't by sending Jesus what He knew that man could not do it...from the beginning )
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Because of Jesus , ✟ I don't believe God hates anyone...this is NT.
If He did, He would tell us to hate our enemies , but He says just the very opposite .

You are very simply not understanding what I said, Helen. For God there is no time. He spoke all of His Word that we have before [to us "before"] the foundation of the world. His entire plan for mankind was already in place from the beginning of His creation. His entire plan included old covenant and new covenant. God, Himself, has never changed and does not and will not ever change. He doesn't need to speak a Word again for He has already spoken it. All the blessings and all of the curses He has already spoken. When and if they apply, any or all, is according what we what we do, or don't do, to instigate the result. I know that you still may not agree but hopefully you will understand where I am coming from... Our friend @ScottA is perhaps seeing somewhat as I do on this.

 

[FHII]

Your are clearly not understanding the implications of the meaning, turn the other cheek. To disobey the command, is to retaliate. That is the only option that counts as disobedience, in the context of the meaning of the phrase. Because, to treat evil with evil, is a sin. That is the point to the command.
To run away, which I prescribed, as an example, is not a sin, in other words, there are alternative methods to deal with an aggressor, that are not sinful, but, all the same, may not have the same remedial affect as turning the other cheek does.
Turning the other cheek is an extremely profound concept, and requires a great deal of understanding, and strength to apply correctly. And when it is done with confidence and wisdom, it has a corrective influence on the malefactor. But, it can make things worse if one simply does it, because he's told that he's supposed to (you're not getting this part).
Again, to disobey, is to act in a way that is sinful, i never promoted that.
Casting out evil spirits, for example, was a mandate that Jesus gave his disciples, but when the seven sons of Sceva attempted it, it back-fired on them. For, they did not understand what they were doing. Same, with turning the other cheek.

This whole turn the other cheek thing....

Here's how Paul saw it:

Romans 12:17-19 KJV
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Do you understand that? It's actually more deviating than many think. Avenge yourself, and yes... You can do some damage. But if you let God avenge you... He can do more than serious damage! "God is Love!". Well yes, he is! But he also is a man of war! Yea... I got scripture on that! If God is a man of war, I don't think you can be better at it than him!

Romans 12:20-21 KJV
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Ain't nothing like good old fashion guilt to hurt an enemy! Been their myself!

1 Timothy 1:20 KJV
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

ThiS is Paul turning the other cheek. He didn't bless them. He didn't feed them or kiss their arse. He delivered them to Satan. That's " loving your enemies".

 

[mjrhealth]

You are very simply not understanding what I said, Helen. For God there is no time. He spoke all of His Word that we have before [to us "before"] the foundation of the world. His entire plan for mankind was already in place from the beginning of His creation. His entire plan included old covenant and new covenant. God, Himself, has never changed and does not and will not ever change. He doesn't need to speak a Word again for it He has already spoken it. All the blessings and all of the curses He has already spoken. When and if they apply, any or all, is according what we what we do, or don't do, to instigate the result. I know that you still may not agree but hopefully you will understand where I am coming from... Our friend @ScottA is perhaps seeing somewhat as I do on this.

I enjoy @ScottA writes good stuff

 

[amadeus]

This comes from too much bible reading and not enough time with Christ, Pia and I actually are quiet surprised how far you have come from reading the bible, so many get it all wrong. Clearly you do listen to Him, or you could never have got as far as you have, but now He must get the world out of us, and He must fill us with His truth. Jesus can use the bible to teach us many things, just as satan can use the bible to keep us from Him. the truth is in Jesus alone, even the bible states that.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so time with Him is teh best time, which is why Im back, need to focus on Him. Too much time fighting battles.

My morning Bible reading time is a good time for me... but not from the reading alone, for as you say the truth is, or is in, Jesus. Jesus is Not the book. The Bible without the quickening Spirit is a dead carcass. The book alone will never be alive, but what people read in the book may be brought to Life in them by the Holy Spirit in them. Many people who acknowledge the Holy Spirit at times still regularly quench the Holy Spirit. This is what most, and probably all, congregations practice too often: quenching the Holy Spirit. It is the reason why so many people claiming to be on God's side regularly work for the other side.

 

[ScottA]

KJV

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


The Lord our God never to my recollection in scripture teach or tell the Children of Israel to “love your enemy” in the OT. There is “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” but no love your enemy.

So why now that Jesus has come into the world is He teaching us who know Him, to love your enemy?

Because, that is exactly what God has done:

God has loved the fallen, those who by definition, are His enemy...not because our sin is always our choice, but because we are the children of those who chose to do evil. Thus, if we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, we should do the same for those who hate us, which becomes the evidence of who we are now children of, doing as He would do and has.

 

[DNB]

This whole turn the other cheek thing....

Here's how Paul saw it:

Romans 12:17-19 KJV
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Do you understand that? It's actually more deviating than many think. Avenge yourself, and yes... You can do some damage. But if you let God avenge you... He can do more than serious damage! "God is Love!". Well yes, he is! But he also is a man of war! Yea... I got scripture on that! If God is a man of war, I don't think you can be better at it than him!

Romans 12:20-21 KJV
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Ain't nothing like good old fashion guilt to hurt an enemy! Been their myself!

1 Timothy 1:20 KJV
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

ThiS is Paul turning the other cheek. He didn't bless them. He didn't feed them or kiss their arse. He delivered them to Satan. That's " loving your enemies".

Well, I'm definitely down with that brother! ...I hope that I didn't give the impression that I was saying otherwise (you sound, in one way, like you're correcting me?).
My position was always that treating evil with good, disgraces the culprit, as opposed to that it spares him injury, ...but rather, injures him more than a blow to the head will.
I was all in favour when Jesus whipped and over-turned the tables of the merchants in the temple, or when Paul made Elymas go blind, or when Ananias & Saphira dropped down dead due to lying to the Lord, etc...

 

[ScottA]

You are very simply not understanding what I said, Helen. For God there is no time. He spoke all of His Word that we have before [to us "before"] the foundation of the world. His entire plan for mankind was already in place from the beginning of His creation. His entire plan included old covenant and new covenant. God, Himself, has never changed and does not and will not ever change. He doesn't need to speak a Word again for He has already spoken it. All the blessings and all of the curses He has already spoken. When and if they apply, any or all, is according what we what we do, or don't do, to instigate the result. I know that you still may not agree but hopefully you will understand where I am coming from... Our friend @ScottA is perhaps seeing somewhat as I do on this.

To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven...A time to keep silence, And a time to speak.

 

[FHII]

Well, I'm definitely down with that brother! ...I hope that I didn't give the impression that I was saying otherwise (you sound, in one way, like you're correcting me?).
My position was always that treating evil with good, disgraces the culprit, as opposed to that it spares him injury, ...but rather, injures him more than a blow to the head will.
I was all in favour when Jesus whipped and over-turned the tables of the merchants in the temple, or when Paul made Elymas go blind, or when Ananias & Saphira dropped down dead due to lying to the Lord, etc...

Well... Correcting you? In light of what you expounded, it was just a call to bring more out, but initially, perhaps it was.

The most powerful statement that can ever be made in a prayer is " not my will, but they will be done". You can put your case before God, and he will always deal with it. Sometimes instant justice, sometimes TBC... My point was that turning the other cheek means letting God handle it when you are right. And perhaps you aren't. But either way, when you give it up to God, it'll work out for good.

But we ain't got to be a pansy about it. Jesus is our big brother and our Father. If we are done wrong... He will deal with it. He is love, but he's also a man of war.

And just.

 

[DNB]

Well... Correcting you? In light of what you expounded, it was just a call to bring more out, but initially, perhaps it was.

The most powerful statement that can ever be made in a prayer is " not my will, but they will be done". You can put your case before God, and he will always deal with it. Sometimes instant justice, sometimes TBC... My point was that turning the other cheek means letting God handle it when you are right. And perhaps you aren't. But either way, when you give it up to God, it'll work out for good.

But we ain't got to be a pansy about it. Jesus is our big brother and our Father. If we are done wrong... He will deal with it. He is love, but he's also a man of war.

And just.

Well, I see your point. I failed to emphasize that one aspect of turning the other cheek, outside of refraining from both, doing evil and exposing the aggressor, was that it gave room for God's wrath.
I think that it was due to the context of 'love your enemy' (OP), that dictated the focus of the argument?
But, either way, good point.

 

[Helen]

You are very simply not understanding what I said, Helen. For God there is no time. He spoke all of His Word that we have before [to us "before"] the foundation of the world. His entire plan for mankind was already in place from the beginning of His creation. His entire plan included old covenant and new covenant. God, Himself, has never changed and does not and will not ever change. He doesn't need to speak a Word again for He has already spoken it. All the blessings and all of the curses He has already spoken. When and if they apply, any or all, is according what we what we do, or don't do, to instigate the result. I know that you still may not agree but hopefully you will understand where I am coming from... Our friend @ScottA is perhaps seeing somewhat as I do on this.

Thanks John , yes that helps a whole lot ...
Where is ScottA when we need him LOL

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Israel is a nation today because the Lord ordained that it would be a nation. It was reinstated in fulfillment of biblical prophecy (Isaiah 66:8).

No verse says such an idea.

Joshua 23:14-16 God fulfilled His promise to the Jews in giving them the land God promised them. Yet that land promise was CONDITIONAL upon Israel's obedience to God. Israel did NOT obey God, lost the land given them and God cast them off. The nation Israel exists today due to the United States giving them monetary and military aid. Again God already FULFILLED the land promise.

 

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps the 1948 return of the descendants of Abraham to the place where Abraham was living at the time he received this prophecy is a better link to the event of 1948 with respect to Abraham's descendants.

Gen 15:16: - 16 But in the fourth generation/age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."​

Where H:1755 is better understood to have the meaning of an age.

 

[justbyfaith]

No verse says such an idea.

A specific verse was given that says the idea that was presented.