What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Enoch111]

So Enoch...In an effort to follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles which Church would you like to go to so we can settle this difference?

There's nothing wrong with going back to the church at Jerusalem. Which had precedence over the church at Rome.

 

[farouk]

I accept God’s Word

Good basic position to be...

 

[Marymog]

Another thing that doesn't work for proselytizing: lying about another person's faith to to their face.

Ummmm.....don't see any lie...just facts.

 

[Marymog]

Hello Mary! It has been a long while since we have spoken together here. Since you tagged me as well I guess you won't mind me posting a few words?

You call it "your truth" as if it belonged to @Enoch111 or to me or to any one of the individuals you named on this post. Jesus made it a bit clearer than that when He simply said:

"...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

So yes then if we agree that Jesus is truth, we are in agreement on that one thing at least.

Hi Amadeus. How was your Christmas?

Jesus also said If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Anytime someone gives (writes) their interpretation of His word and how to continue in his word then YES it is their truth. Therefor it was IN FACT like I said Enoch's truth.

Jesus is the Truth HOWEVER we all have our own interpretations of what "the truth" is when we interpret His word. Because of all these varying interpretations we now have soooo many denominations and soooo many "truths".

So Amadeus....WHO decides if you or me or Enoch is continuing in His word which make us truly his disciple? Who decides which interpretation is correct? You?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

But then you, if memory serves me right on this, have effectively said that the one verse cited on this thread as being directed to all of us who read it [John 14:26] was actually only directed to the Apostles and therefore we were wrong to presume or state that is applies to us.

Do you believe that John 14:26 applies to you and every Christian?? That EVERY Christian would be taught by the Spirit? If you believe that 14:26 is directed at ALL Christians then all of us can say that the Spirit brought us to the Truth. What would be our evidence of this? What is your evidence that the Spirit guides you into the Truth?

How do you get around the last verse of that passage?: and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

In CONTEXT Jesus was CLEARLY speaking directly to and only to the Apostles and that THEY would remember. To twist that passage any other way would change 2,000 years of Church teaching.

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

Can anyone other than those Jews standing there know Jesus and be made free?

So then does that include you since you are not a Jew and were not standing there? Can you not know Jesus? Can none of us, [Catholic or Not], know Jesus? Can none of us, [Catholic or Not], know the Truth, which is Him?

Was His promise then only to born in the flesh Jews? Or do you definitely make a distinction between what was spoken to the Jew and what was spoken to the [12] Apostles? What of the gentiles?

Can no person, not of pure Jewish blood [carnal blood] claim any of the promises that according to the gospels came out of Jesus' mouth?

Thank you for this opportunity to study Scripture with you.

Notice how John 8 starts out by saying that all the people came to him. That means there was a mix of believers and non believers in the crowd; not just Jews.

In the John 8: 31-32 passage Jesus spoke DIRECTLY to the Jews when he said to them specifically, “If you continue in my word....". Those Jews had STARTED in his word and he encouraged them to CONTINUE in His word. They were in the process of converting to Christianity. What did Jesus say would be their reward for CONTINUING in His word and fully converting to Christianity? He told them they would truly be his disciples, 32 and that they will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Later, in John 14, he tells his listeners that He is the way, the truth and the life.

Why was He encouraging them to CONTINUE in His word? I suspect they had some concerns about what he was saying. Maybe they were the ones that walked away from Him after the bread of life discourse when he told them they had to eat him and drink his blood?

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

"And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour." Matt 8:13

Could we not today come to Jesus in the same manner with a similar great faith like this Roman Centurion gentile and would He do it also unto us...? Or would it be necessary to go to an anointed Apostle or priest of the Church to act as an intermediary in order to get the attention of Jesus in order to receive as the Roman gentile received?

Thank you Amadeus.

If it were so simple as to just "believe" or have "faith" in Him, like the centurion, then why are there almost 200,000 words in the NT?

Believing or having faith is the first step. I suspect the Roman Centurion took a few more steps toward his belief/faith AFTER that incident. Scripture makes it clear what we are supposed to do to be saved and truly be his disciples: Acts 2:38, 2 peter 3:9, John 3:5, luke 12:8, Romans 2:6 etc

So to answer your question, Could we not today come to Jesus in the same manner with a similar great faith like this Roman Centurion gentile and would He do it also unto us...? The answer is NO, we today we can not come to Jesus in the same manner as the centurion did in that ONE passage....it takes more than just faith/belief to truly be His disciple. If what you are suggesting is true then wouldn't Scripture just say "believe and have faith in Him and you are guaranteed salvation"? That would make for a very short bible

Bible Study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Oh yes, which man?

Gods word says "Put not your confidences in man."

A man, is a man, is a man. Thats all, a man.

It takes God's Spirit to open up His word.

Which I know is an argument that you love...because you have your pet responses ...like - "If the Holy Spirit interprets the word, how come there are so many interpretations. " Yawn.

One day God will tell us all the answers. Until then we walk by faith, not by man.

....H

Hi Helen,

I can't find that passage ("Put not your confidences in man.") Are you talking about Psalm 146:3? If so, it doesn't say that!

Which man (or woman) do you put your confidence in to properly interpret Scripture? YOURSELF?

And it is still a question you CAN'T or haven't answered: If the Holy Spirit interprets the word, how come there are so many interpretations.

You "yawn" but you can't answer.....

 

[Marymog]

There's nothing wrong with going back to the church at Jerusalem. Which had precedence over the church at Rome.

Nice dodge...

The Church at Jerusalem had the living Apostles decide what all Christians must believe at the Council of Jerusalem. So what is our choice here? Raise the Apostles from the dead to decide for us or rely on the living Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth to decide for us?

 

[Marymog]

I accept God’s Word, Mary. Don’t bear false witness.

Which word? There are almost 200,000 of them in the NT alone. And they all need interpretation.

 

[Enoch111]

...or rely on the living Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth to decide for us?

You have assumed that the Catholic Church is *the living Church*. But that is really not the case.

So what you must do is go back to the LIVING WORD of God and the LIVING HOLY SPIRIT (Heb 4:12,13). It is the Holy Spirit who guided the Church at Jerusalem, but what the apostles recorded was also under the inspiration, direction, and control of the Holy Spirit.

That is why the Bible says that "every word of God is pure" and that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God". Also, the words of Christ are in fact the words of God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You have assumed that the Catholic Church is *the living Church*. But that is really not the case.

So what you must do is go back to the LIVING WORD of God and the LIVING HOLY SPIRIT (Heb 4:12,13). It is the Holy Spirit who guided the Church at Jerusalem, but what the apostles recorded was also under the inspiration, direction, and control of the Holy Spirit.

That is why the Bible says that "every word of God is pure" and that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God". Also, the words of Christ are in fact the words of God.

I got to say: any person or group that tries to convince me not come unto Christ, and instead come to some man, isn't teaching the fullness of Christ's Gospel. They may get parts right, but missing the huge center important part.

 

[Marymog]

You have assumed that the Catholic Church is *the living Church*. But that is really not the case.

So what you must do is go back to the LIVING WORD of God and the LIVING HOLY SPIRIT (Heb 4:12,13). It is the Holy Spirit who guided the Church at Jerusalem, but what the apostles recorded was also under the inspiration, direction, and control of the Holy Spirit.

That is why the Bible says that "every word of God is pure" and that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God". Also, the words of Christ are in fact the words of God.

If not the men of the CC are not part of the living church then which men of which Church are? The man in the church of Enoch? What is a living church enoch?

The Spirit guided and inspired the MEN of the Church at Jerusalem. So which men of which Church does the Spirit inspire and guide today? The man and church of Enoch?

The word of God is pure and we do live by His word. Who properly interprets that word and who twists that word to their own destruction?

Scripture speaks of sound doctrine which means there is a un-sound doctrine which is taught by false teachers. To whom do you go to for sound doctrine and from whom do you get it? Enoch?

The words of Christ have to be interpreted by men. There were some men who improperly interpreted that word and in Acts 15 it says that the Apostles heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. The MEN at the Church of Jerusalem, with the guidance of the Spirit, corrected those men. Did the Spirit stop guiding the Church when the Apostles died Enoch?

curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Good basic position to be...

Hey farouk,

If her interpretation of Gods word on how one is saved is different then your interpretation.....is she still in a "good basic position"? Or would she have the wrong interpretation?

Curious Mary

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus. How was your Christmas?

Very good! Possibly the best one since our own children were still at home with us. Our youngest just turned 45, that's been a long time ago.

Hopefully yours was good as well.

Jesus also said If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Anytime someone gives (writes) their interpretation of His word and how to continue in his word then YES it is their truth. Therefor it was IN FACT like I said Enoch's truth.

Jesus is the Truth HOWEVER we all have our own interpretations of what "the truth" is when we interpret His word. Because of all these varying interpretations we now have soooo many denominations and soooo many "truths".

So Amadeus....WHO decides if you or me or Enoch is continuing in His word which make us truly his disciple? Who decides which interpretation is correct? You?

Curious Mary

Well since I have not been appointed by God as anyone's judge, what do you think?

Remember when one fellow came to Jesus asking for his judgment in a matter?

"And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:13-14

Same for me. I, of course, must judge things for myself ultimately, but as a follower of Christ, should not I and every other follower of Him pay attention to the way he did things and to the ways he suggested or commanded or provided and go on from there?

As for these others you specifically ask about, is it not between each of them and God? Should we be deciding for another person how he is to follow the Lord? If someone asked me for help and an answer was in me and and God did not hinder it in some way, then I would do what I could in accord with His will... Do we always know His will?

How does a person do as the verse says, "continue in His Word."?

 

[amadeus]

Do you believe that John 14:26 applies to you and every Christian?? That EVERY Christian would be taught by the Spirit? If you believe that 14:26 is directed at ALL Christians then all of us can say that the Spirit brought us to the Truth. What would be our evidence of this? What is your evidence that the Spirit guides you into the Truth?

I do believe that it is directed to every one who is seeking His face. I brought it up as I was hoping you would explain why anyone would not believe that? David wrote of being told to seek His face and then proceeded to do so:

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

Apostle Paul wrote that "we" would then see "face to face":

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Are we, you and I and anyone seeking the Way of God be included in that "we"?

The Apostle John wrote this:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Are not all seeker who endure to the end with Him include in the "we", the sons of God who would see him as he is. Are we not already seeing, even if it may be along with Paul "through a glass, darkly" for now... but approaching that "face to face" vision about which John wrote?

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

What have we heard from Jesus or what have we seen about which the Holy Ghost in us would bring to our remembrance? What are included in the "all things" to be taught to us? How is this done since we were not there in old Israel in the flesh hearing his spoken words with our carnal ears?

How about we have consumed the word of the scriptures themselves, dead things while they remained in the Book unread and then the Holy Ghost in us quickened within us the words consumed? That is He brought them to Life making those quickened words, now the Word of God in us, a part of that new man who would never die.

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

Jesus said those words to us when we read the scriptures as we were moved by the Holy Ghost and the meaning of those words came to Life. Do you believe that God only speaks to people with a mouth of flesh as Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his closest disciples?

What did Jesus pray?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

How do you get around the last verse of that passage?: and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

"Get around it? Why should we want to that if we are seeking truth and we believe what is written in the gospels was written by men anointed by God to do so?

Do you not believe that Jesus speaks to anyone today, you or me or anyone else? What did He say about His sheep? Are we not his sheep or should we not be His sheep?

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

In CONTEXT Jesus was CLEARLY speaking directly to and only to the Apostles and that THEY would remember.

Certainly He was speaking to them, but He was also speaking those today with "ears to hear"!

"And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8

And He was showing the Truth to those who had "eyes to see".
A person sees and hears the things of God only by the Holy Ghost. The original apostles saw and heard by the power of the Holy Ghost promised and given to whom?

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" Acts 2:38-39

To twist that passage any other way would change 2,000 years of Church teaching.

2,000 years of teaching? And how long did the anointed patriarchs, judges, prophets and priests in the OT teaching people when Jesus arrived on the scene? It about 2,000 years prior to that that Abram/Abraham was hearing from God. Yet after 2000 years of men of God being sent to people, where was the leadership when Jesus came? Where were most of the people who supposedly followed those leaders? When the leaders claimed Abraham as their father do recall Jesus' response?

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39

All of that time, 2000 years and who had twisted the teaching of the prophets so that Jesus rebuked them for making such claims. How far had mankind, including the natural children of Jacob, traveled away from the perfection of the Garden of Eden? How far away has mankind today, including the people in churches, traveled away from the perfection of Jesus when he was crucified?

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for this opportunity to study Scripture with you.

Notice how John 8 starts out by saying that all the people came to him. That means there was a mix of believers and non believers in the crowd; not just Jews.

In the John 8: 31-32 passage Jesus spoke DIRECTLY to the Jews when he said to them specifically, “If you continue in my word....". Those Jews had STARTED in his word and he encouraged them to CONTINUE in His word. They were in the process of converting to Christianity. What did Jesus say would be their reward for CONTINUING in His word and fully converting to Christianity? He told them they would truly be his disciples, 32 and that they will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. Later, in John 14, he tells his listeners that He is the way, the truth and the life.

Why was He encouraging them to CONTINUE in His word? I suspect they had some concerns about what he was saying. Maybe they were the ones that walked away from Him after the bread of life discourse when he told them they had to eat him and drink his blood?

Bible study Mary

Continuing in the Word of God is not only for Jews, the naturally born children of Jacob/Israel. It is for everyone. Alone man will fail as people following Moses and Joshua and others in the OT failed. They failed because they walked alone:

The prophets knew and warned people:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

The psalmist knew and asked for help from the only One who could help:

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:5

The prophet promised a better more direct approach for those really seeking for the Jews, but also for whosoever will:

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezek 36:26-27

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" Joel 2:28

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;" Acts 2:16

People can and have watered down the promises and used the languages of men and the logic of men to twist it to fit their ways. The ways of the so called churches, be they Catholic or Protestant or Pentecostal of almost [or all] other groups have done the same thing the Jews did with what God had given to them. Instead doing it as well as they could and trying to teach it exactly God had show it was to be done, they twisted it... first in the OT and then in the NT [including and especially now].

Today as in the times before the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem people followed the lead of their own heart. Jesus brought a better way, but that Way was and is through the power of the Holy Ghost which both the Catholics and the non-Catholic have consistently with few exceptions taught people to quench blatantly brushing aside the Apostle's admonition:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

And elsewere he explains it more fully, but still people pracitice quenching the Spirit and lead other to do the same:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" 8:13-18

So visit the churches, so-called, those who have that set up their own rituals and programs and tighten their man prescribed rules and see what man can do. This they do most places called church today, instead of allowing the Holy Spirit in the people to take the lead and lead on to God.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you Amadeus.

If it were so simple as to just "believe" or have "faith" in Him, like the centurion, then why are there almost 200,000 words in the NT?

Do you really believe that all of the true believers in God and His Son have delved deeply into the scriptures in order the receive the simple promises Peter described for us in the Acts 2?

I grew up as a Catholic and never during all of that time as an active Catholic did I read a Bible myself. People here on this forum and in Catholic Churches will say otherwise, but in the only parish I attended regularly they discouraged Bible reading. They may read the whole Bible regularly these days in the languages of the people but they never read the whole Bible even once in all the years I attended there. They may have not been doing it according to whatever rules prescribed by the CC powers of the time, but that made no difference to me. I was following the only leaders I knew.

I did not own a Bible myself until I had been out of active Catholicism for more than 10 years. When I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost Peter describes in Acts 2, I had never yet read the Bible at all.

Then that church denomination got me to start reading the Bible and they also trained/indoctrinated me in how to live for God the right way. Except it wasn't all right. I did not know it then but God accepts us when we come to Him in the simple naivete of a child. I did and then they went to work on me to undo the framework of Catholicism and of my secular education... and rebuild me in their own image, although they called it the image of God.

The problems arise when men streamline and define the process or salvation and living for God... instead of really eating His flesh and drinking His blood. A lot them eat His flesh and miss out on drinking His blood and they go the way of a human body drained of its red blood. There have always been a few, very few, who seemed to partake of both really...

Believing or having faith is the first step. I suspect the Roman Centurion took a few more steps toward his belief/faith AFTER that incident. Scripture makes it clear what we are supposed to do to be saved and truly be his disciples: Acts 2:38, 2 peter 3:9, John 3:5, luke 12:8, Romans 2:6 etc

I would not spend too much time on the Centurion unless we can find an accurate unbiased biography for him somewhere. Other than that we really know nothing about what happened later. We can presume based on the words of Jesus that the man, the Centurion, was moving in the right direction. Did he endure with Jesus to the end of his course? How can we know? As to the verses you cited, since they weren't written for quite a while how would he have had access to them?

If all the things written in those verses were written by men inspired by God then they contain good things. The problem is that the best of writings in the scripture are still dead when men not led by the Holy Ghost attempt to understand or follow them. This is true for Catholics or Protestants or anyone else. The flesh without the blood is dead.

So to answer your question, Could we not today come to Jesus in the same manner with a similar great faith like this Roman Centurion gentile and would He do it also unto us...? The answer is NO, we today we can not come to Jesus in the same manner as the centurion did in that ONE passage....it takes more than just faith/belief to truly be His disciple. If what you are suggesting is true then wouldn't Scripture just say "believe and have faith in Him and you are guaranteed salvation"? That would make for a very short bible

I disagree with your answer to my question, I won't do a Bible study for you as I don't believe that you would hear it anyway.

Consider however that your own church has special provisions in place for people who for reasons over they have no control, such as death, they were unable to receive a required sacrament of the church. Some one was aware of the need of such things in order to satisfy what Paul and others wrote about them so they implements those special provisions.

As a Bible student I would assume that you had at least heard of those provision even if you did not remember exactly where they are. That is where I am on it as well. I could look them up for you, but I won't. I am sure I know what I am talking about for this is a part of Catholicism.

Also you were seemingly hinting that I stood in favor of OSAS. You'd be wrong to believe that.

 

[amadeus]

@Marymog
I was tagging you here just in case you failed to receive an alert. I did spend some time writings several posts for you on this past Friday, 01-10-2020 starting with my post #1635. I don't expect to change your mind on things, but at least try to understand where I am and where I am not. Thanks! May God richly bless you as you search for more of His Truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Marymog
I was tagging you here just in case you failed to receive an alert. I did spend some time writings several posts for you on this past Friday, 01-10-2020 starting with my post #1635. I don't expect to change your mind on things, but at least try to understand where I am and where I am not. Thanks! May God richly bless you as you search for more of His Truth.

Ya. the alerts do not work all the time.