1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Prayer Warrior, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,138
    Likes Received:
    12,609
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This I know! I have encounter posts over a long period of time where I should have been alerted but wasn't. I always respond to any alerts before looking at any other posts. I don't know enough about the system to understand the "why" of it.
     
  2. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,741
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I've answered this question for you before as have others on this forum. You disagree with the answers of any not claiming Catholicism [and probably of some Catholics too] but you keep on asking... Well you are allowed to do that as we are allowed to remain apart from you on any answers.

    God alone decides!


    In each of us in whom the Holy Spirit dwells He sifts through the incoming data to the extent we allow it in order to express to us: the Truth. Since each of us has different needs [determined by God] and each of us [except any who have already overcome as Jesus did] does quench the Holy Spirit some of time in some measure, a great variety of answers are expressed. You will say that your church has only one answer, but without trying to disprove that, I nevertheless doubt it and I doubt you could provide any rationale or any absolute proof that would change
    any the hearts and minds here.


    According to what is written, we, all of us [you also included in the "us"], do still live by faith. If I deny my faith or you deny your faith, what is it that we have of truth? God knows!

    "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

    "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4[/QUOTE]

    Good One John.
    These verses tells me that Jesus wanted all to know what He taught:
    "19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
    Matthew 28:19-20
     
    Prayer Warrior and amadeus like this.
  3. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,741
    Likes Received:
    8,960
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I have given up on the Alerts as I do not get more than I do!
     
    amadeus likes this.
  4. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    You contradict yourself here. Either you accept Jesus and His authority for your faith and practice, or you accept the church as your authority. In one place you edit the church as final authority and claim you obey the church only because the church... Your church... Has all the truth, then you claim above that all Christians must obey Jesus and His teachings... All His teachings. No wonder you are confused.

    I disagree. If they are true Christians, they are so only because they have been spoken to by the holy Spirit. That applies to wherever they are, and whoever they are. Membership of a church does not constitute one being a Christian... Conversion comes only from above through the power and operation of the Spirit in the life of the individual.

    Again, you reveal your confusion. Either you adhere to scripture as your authority, or your church. It cannot be both, unless both agree. And when the church doesn't agree with scripture, as happened in the apostasy beginning in the 3rd century and continues to this day, then it is incumbent upon Christians to vacate the premises and take up residence elsewhere for the sake of self preservation of nothing else.
    Yet immediately above you say you are quote, "trying to adhere to scripture".
    And that Mary borders on blasphemy and calling Jesus a liar. Who is the Word? Who does the holy Spirit belong to? Who inspired the prophets and apostles?
    Next you will be claiming that only Catholics are Christians because only Catholics have the holy Spirit and only Catholics have the truth. Oh wait....
     
    amadeus and Nancy like this.
  5. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thank you. My Christmas was good also. The kids came over Christmas day and we opened presents, ate, visited, ate again etc. The day after Christmas we went an a 4 day vacation. Very nice, relaxing. :)

    WOW....youngest is 45!! Many years until my children make it to that age.

    Respectfully, Mary
     
    amadeus likes this.
  6. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thank you.

    To answer your questions I will quote Scripture: On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it....

    If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.....whatever you (the leaders of the Church) bind on earth will be bound in heaven....you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.


    I agree with you! You nor I have been appointed as judge, the Church has! So it is the Church who decides if you or me or Enoch is continuing in His word. If we continue in His word, according to what the Church binds us to, it makes us His disciple. It is the Church who decides which interpretation is correct!

    Bible Study Mary
     
  7. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Amadeus,

    Yes! We should "pay attention to the way he did things and to the ways he suggested or commanded or provided"! In that passage you referenced (Luke 12:13-14) Jesus was telling the person that he is not a judge of civil affairs. If you look at the next verse (vs15) He says, “Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions .

    So putting that passage IN CONTEXT here is the way Jesus did things. Jesus was telling the person that he is not a judge over civil matters (where should the inheritance go) but He is a judge over moral matters; greed and abundance of possession's. Titus 3:1, 1 Peter 2:13-17, Romans 13:1 tell us how we should handle the civil matter (inheritance) in Luke 12:13-14 that you referenced. The Church decides the moral matters.

    Hope that helps....Mary
     
  8. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi,

    Do you think the elders of the Branch Davidians and Westboro Baptist Church and United Methodist Church and many other church elders of different churches have done His will?

    Curious Mary
     
  9. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thank you.

    You HONESTLY believe that EVERY Christian has the Holy Spirit teaching them in all things and that the Spirit will bring to EVERY Christian into remembrance of all that He said? (ref John 14:26) YOUR interpretation of that passage is that Jesus really meant EVERY CHRISTIAN from 33AD to eternity??

    Even though Jesus was speaking DIRECTLY to the Apostles and said that the Spirit will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.

    Putting your interpretation (theory) of that passage into practice I can't figure out why YOU don't listen to ME when I tell you the proper interpretation of Scripture? After all, the Holy Spirit has taught me everything and you have previously admitted that you are not always guided by the Spirit.

    Mary
     
  10. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I was not hinting that you stood in favor of OSAS.
     
    amadeus likes this.
  11. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thank you Amadeus.

    Unlike you I am not in search for more of His Truth. I have found the Truth in the Church which is the pillar and foundation of Truth and has the authority to decide who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.....just like Scripture says.

    Mary
     
  12. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No contradiction on my part sir.

    I accept the Church that Jesus started which has the authority given to it by Jesus in Matthew 18:17-18 and is the pillar and foundation of truth....Just like Scripture says. You reject the teachings of Scripture and accept YOU as authority.

    If it is not The Church that has the authority to teach us what me MUST OBEY then who does have that authority?

    Curious Mary
     
  13. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,138
    Likes Received:
    12,609
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Yes, indeed, tell it to the Church, which is the Body of Christ, which is everyone of one of us fitted in as a functioning member of that Body:

    "For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:14


    "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." I Cor 12:27

    "And he [the Lord, Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

    "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:" Col 1:24

    I can fill in some blanks here as I know you have already done with your above words. You probably use what are contained in the oral/written traditions/doctrines/dogmas/etc. of what you call the Church, while I can only speak from what I have heard from God directly or through others as they were given what to speak through the Holy Spirit. You might deny that what I heard was from God especially if it did not agree with what you believe. The reverse might also be true.

    By the verses I cited above and others I do see an established Church or a Church in the process of being established, but I do not see it as being precisely equal to the Catholic Church of which you are a formal member. I do see that some Catholics might be included in the Church I see. But even in your Church do I or I could I and other non-Catholics qualify under your provision called "invincible ignorance"? Ah, but perhaps because I was baptized as a Catholic at the age of six years and practiced as a Catholic until age 18 I am a different case altogether. Fortunately, it is ultimately God has all of the facts who reviews each case and makes any final decisions.

    Would not any decisions made under that 'tell it to the Church verse' be for the here and now of the local church group led by men rather than automatically in every case being rubber stamped by God as the final judgment against an accused person? Would it not be comparable the moderators on this forum banning a member for breaking their rules? The moderators decision to ban would not preclude God from forgiving that person upon his making any necessary repentance even though he was never reinstated here.


    Rather the correct interpretation comes from God for is not He the interpreter? Jesus spoke to the people in parables and when his followers needed an interpretation he was the one to give it [Matt 15:16-20], was he not? At that time, being here in the flesh, Jesus was the Light of the world [John 8:12]. But He went to his Father so now are we not to be the Light of the world [Matt 5:14] enabled through the power of the Holy Spirit to witness [Acts 1:8] and to interpret as the Spirit gives us the words to do so...?

     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,138
    Likes Received:
    12,609
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Again I believe that the local church group should be able to render judgments for or against a member as it affects that assembly or other connected and concerned parties, but that is not a final irrevocable ruling binding on God unless God agrees with it absolutely. [Can we know that now?] Men can and do use what is written, unwittingly, or on purpose, as in the condemnation of Naboth by Ahab and Jezebel [I Kings 21], to accomplish things definitely contrary to God's will. It is and must be that ultimately God is the only One we always trust who renders any final judgment against a person. We can have confidence in men but because they are fallible, it is necessarily a limited trust. Any man, no matter what position he holds in any church group is still fallible. For this reason his authority is also limited. Apostle Paul confirmed as much here:

    "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
     
  15. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,138
    Likes Received:
    12,609
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I have never belonged to any of those groups, so what do I know other than what I have heard from other men? I have heard some things that sound wrong or evil to me, but it comes back to God who really knows the facts regarding each person to be the only proper judge.

    "Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" Matt 7:1-2


    We may need to make judgements as what we will or will not do because one of those groups somehow really affects our own walk with God, but then is when we must lean heavily of God so that we do it the way he would want us to do it:

    "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
    Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:5-7
     
  16. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hey Amadeus,

    If the Church is "everyone of us" then which ONE of us is the pillar and foundation of truth and which ONE of us do we go to that has the authority to call the other a pagan/tax collector?

    Curious Mary
     
  17. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    If your theory is true, that "the correct interpretation comes from God", then to whom did He give the correct interpretation? After all your interpretation is different then the CC, Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Billy Graham, Mohammad etc. ?

    Can you see how your theory doesn't work?

    Mary
     
  18. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hmmmm.....which "local church" should be able to render judgment on us and fulfill Matthew 18:17? The Rock Church in New York? The Holy Church of Christ in Alabama? How about the Chong Yi Church in China?

    Which "local" church do you choose?

    Curious Mary
     
  19. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,811
    Likes Received:
    591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Nope, not true.

    As stated previously it is The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is the proper judge because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. Why do you choose to disregard what Scripture has to say on this matter?

    Curious Mary
     
  20. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    1,813
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No.

    God, whom is the Holy Spirit (and Son and Father) that is the proper judge because He is Truth. Why do you choose to disregard God?

    The Catholic Church is not God. Quit putting them where only God stands and making it an idol.

    I don't say thing because I have anything against Catholicism, or Catholic people in general. But I get VERY tired of you on here trying to convince everyone to ignore God himself and instead worship the idol you have made the Catholic Church into.
     
    amadeus and Nancy like this.
Loading...