What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[amadeus]

Thank you.

You HONESTLY believe that EVERY Christian has the Holy Spirit teaching them in all things and that the Spirit will bring to EVERY Christian into remembrance of all that He said? (ref John 14:26) YOUR interpretation of that passage is that Jesus really meant EVERY CHRISTIAN from 33AD to eternity??

Until there is no more time for every person who has time the Holy Spirit is available! This is our connection with our Head, which is Jesus!

Even though Jesus was speaking DIRECTLY to the Apostles and said that the Spirit will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.

Our direction is of God or we are lost.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:5

Putting your interpretation (theory) of that passage into practice I can't figure out why YOU don't listen to ME when I tell you the proper interpretation of Scripture? After all, the Holy Spirit has taught me everything and you have previously admitted that you are not always guided by the Spirit.

Mary

Listen to you? I am listening, but I am also listening to Him. His voice has the priority with me when I am properly paying attention.

I am one of His sheep and as such I do hear His voice [John 10:3-4]. My problem and everyone else's of those who hear His voice [except any who already overcome as Jesus overcame] is that when we quench the Spirit in us we are not hearing or listening or obeying and thus we miss the Way.

If I never missed at all because I never quenched the Holy Spirit in me, I would likely already be an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer. I haven't met anyone that I know about like that yet. But, not being an overcomer myself, how could I or you know? To recognize one who has overcome like that would require that "face to face" type of vision. Jesus had it. It is available to us.

However, even though I have missed, I have always thus far returned to the lowest room [Luke 14:7-11] asking Him to check all that I hold or believe and to make corrections as needed. This is a daily practice for me and it is how I avoid ending up in a delusion [II Thess. 2:10-11] . It is a Way to continue to grow more like God as He is allowed to work in us. God knowing our/my frailty helps in this because He knows our heart and does make the impossibility for any one of us alone into a possibility. The impossible thing is when we presume that we can do it alone and head our that way.

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Like King David of old... if our heart is continuously directed toward God and we continue to humble ourselves before God when we do err as he did with Bethsheba and Uriah, He will always allow a way of escape from our error. When we presume upon Him, that is we tempt Him by going ahead in our sinful way presuming He will forgive us as He has done before.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. " I Cor 10:13

My goal in this is overcome through the Holy Spirit the world which stands between me and God.
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:15-16

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

 

[Nancy]

No.

God, whom is the Holy Spirit (and Son and Father) that is the proper judge because He is Truth. Why do you choose to disregard God?

The Catholic Church is not God. Quit putting them where only God stands and making it an idol.

I don't say thing because I have anything against Catholicism, or Catholic people in general. But I get VERY tired of you on here trying to convince everyone to ignore God himself and instead worship the idol you have made the Catholic Church into.

Agreed. The "Church" consists of ALL Christians, not a denomination. Are we ALL on the same path (Jesus) yes! Are we all at the same place on this narrow road? NO! God gives us understanding when He can trust us with it. Until then, we trust, trust, trust Him to give us understanding, as He sees fit. It is not possible that every single one of us are marching at the same place on that road. We strive to enter into His Truth and He reveals to us as He grows us. Christians come in all sizes and shapes and it is so arrogant to think that one denomination has ALL truth to the detriment of all the others. So much angst.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you Amadeus.

Unlike you I am not in search for more of His Truth. I have found the Truth in the Church which is the pillar and foundation of Truth and has the authority to decide who is to be treated as a pagan or tax collector.....just like Scripture says.

Mary

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.: I Cor 13:12

 

[amadeus]

Hey Amadeus,

If the Church is "everyone of us" then which ONE of us is the pillar and foundation of truth and which ONE of us do we go to that has the authority to call the other a pagan/tax collector?

Curious Mary

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Cor 3:10-11

 

[amadeus]

If your theory is true, that "the correct interpretation comes from God", then to whom did He give the correct interpretation? After all your interpretation is different then the CC, Methodist Church, Baptist Church, Billy Graham, Mohammad etc. ?

Can you see how your theory doesn't work?

Mary

People grow once they have met Jesus, or they do not. That choice is always theirs to make. If they do not grow like still water, like a lake with no outlet, like the Great Salt Lake in Utah, USA or like the Dead Sea in the Middle East there is no Life in them. People who walk around without Jesus are dead as people have been since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Jesus confirms this here:

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

But God did not leave us without hope of Life for He sent His Son:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

The Life is the Truth. The Life is the Word of God which is Jesus.

Some people run out of time when they first meet Jesus ['good' thief on the cross= same day], while some have a bit more time like Stephen [Acts 7] who was stoned to death while still a young man. Others live a great many years more than either of those as for example the Apostle John. Each one can grow closer to God during the time he has. Like in the parable of the talents, it depends on what a person does with what God gives to him. Simple salvation went to both the one with 10 talents and the one with 5 talents, but their reward were not precisely the same [Matt 25:14ff].

The basic salvation is for anyone who endures with Him to the end [Matt 10:22]. This last may be seen in the parable of the workers who started to work for the Master at different times of the day but each at the end of the day received only the 1 penny [Matt 20:1ff]

The growth in a person depends, as I said on what he does with what he is given. What are we each given? A certain set of parents or life as an orphan; a certain period of time; a certain place of birth [USA versus Haiti], a certain availability of financial security or the lack thereof; a certain mental capability [IQ], a certain opportunity for education or the lack thereof; a certain availability of the written scriptures or the lack thereof; and so forth...

You mentioned certain men or denominations. God judges each of those as well, no me! The correct interpretation? Do you really believe that doctrines held is more important to God than the focus of our hearts and/or the love/charity that we manifest as we walk through this place?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." I Cor 13:1-3

You, like many others want to put God in a box in which He does not fit. You want black and white rules that everyone can know in his own carnal mind. That is what God showed, if you can understand it, through the example of the natural children of Israel and the laws given to them to follow as led by Moses and other in the OT. Peter makes it clear that that was an impossible yoke:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" acts 15:10

Now the Catholics... and yes, many Non-Catholics too want to put other yokes on people instead of letting them know that God through the Holy Spirit in them will lead them along the right pathway with Him. It is no longer an impossibility!

 

[Marymog]

No.

God, whom is the Holy Spirit (and Son and Father) that is the proper judge because He is Truth. Why do you choose to disregard God?

The Catholic Church is not God. Quit putting them where only God stands and making it an idol.....

Hi Jane Doe. How was your Christmas?

Hmmmm......sooooo your judging me on my (the Churches) interpretation of Scripture but you say God is the judge? Your giving me YOUR truth so why does your truth trump the Churches truth? I thought Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Who said the CC is God? I have made it VERY clear that I follow Scripture and Scripture says that we should take our differences to the Church and that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not you. Not me.

So Jane doe....in an effort to fulfill Scripture...to what Church would you like to go to and have settle this difference between you and me?

 

[amadeus]

Hmmmm.....which "local church" should be able to render judgment on us and fulfill Matthew 18:17? The Rock Church in New York? The Holy Church of Christ in Alabama? How about the Chong Yi Church in China?

Which "local" church do you choose?

Curious Mary

Does it matter which local church it is? Each one them of those really established for the purpose of God has its own needs. Each one does its own thing and should be directed by God. [Notice that I used the word, should.] Whether they are doing that perfectly is unlikely in each case and of course, this includes local Catholic parishes because each one has as ministers fallible men who if they have the Holy Spirit do at times quench the Holy Spirit.

The only one that normally should matter to me would the one to which God has called me and placed me if He called me and placed me in one. In such a one to which He called and placed me and in which I have according to His will submitted myself to the any local ministers.

"But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches." I Cor 7:17

"Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God." I Cor 7:24

 

[amadeus]

Nope, not true.

As stated previously it is The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that is the proper judge because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. Why do you choose to disregard what Scripture has to say on this matter?

Curious Mary

I won't reply further to this as I believe I have covered these things in other posts.

 

[Marymog]

You, like many others want to put God in a box in which He does not fit. You want black and white rules that everyone can know in his own carnal mind. That is what God showed, if you can understand it, through the example of the natural children of Israel and the laws given to them to follow as led by Moses and other in the OT. Peter makes it clear that that was an impossible yoke:

Nope...simply not true. Not putting God in a box. It takes man to interpret his word and, as Scripture says, his word has sound doctrine and false doctrines. The false doctrines (things that are not true) are taught by wolves in sheep clothing. The sound doctrines (things that are true) are taught by the Church which is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. His rules ARE "black and white". Like when Jesus/Scripture says, Truly, Truly I say to you... OR you must do XYZ to be saved. That is black and white. So once again your theory is not sustainable.

Mary

 

[amadeus]

@Marymog

Marymog said:
Nope...simply not true. Not putting God in a box. It takes man to interpret his word and, as Scripture says, his word has sound doctrine and false doctrines. The false doctrines (things that are not true) are taught by wolves in sheep clothing. The sound doctrines (things that are true) are taught by the Church which is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. His rules ARE "black and white". Like when Jesus/Scripture says, Truly, Truly I say to you... OR you must do XYZ to be saved. That is black and white. So once again your theory is not sustainable.

There certainly is a black and white Truth or as friend @bbyrd009 would call it AT [Absolute Truth], but as Apostle Paul wrote in a verse I quoted for you earlier [I Cor 13:12] our vision is through a glass darkly which means it is less than perfectly clear. The AT exists, but until we have overcome all there is for us to overcome according to God, we see it [understand it, know it] only in part.

The Church as you mean it does not teach. It is the men and women in positions within it who teach. Each one of them still seeing through darkened glass teaches at best part of the truth and includes some lies. I speak not only of the Catholic Church but every other church group of my personal experience. I doubt that I will find any group that does not in some measure, even though perhaps unknowingly, include errors in their teaching.

If what I believe and present is sustainable as you put it in the eyes of God, will not He sustain it? If any part of it is in error, will it like all the wood, hay and stubble be burned? But this is not so only for my presentation but also the presentations of everyone else, who is not yet a completed overcomer, including Catholic ministers.

If, however, each of us is seeking His kingdom and His righteousness will He not provide as He promised everything else that is needed? [Matt 6:33]

 

[Marymog]

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Cor 3:10-11

Bible study....LOVE IT!

In that passage, which is a letter to the Corinthian Church, Paul is not claiming to have laid the foundation of the universal Church, only the foundation of the local Church at Corinth. He is speaking of Christ as the foundation of the local, not the universal, Church. Paul could not have laid the foundation of THE CHURCH since he wasn’t even a Christian when that was done by Christ.

We should look at ALL of Scripture when talking of this matter. In 1 Peter 2:6 Peter quotes Isaiah 28:16 and it says that Jesus is the Church’s cornerstone, not its foundation. A cornerstone is only one piece of a foundation and this doesn’t exclude other pieces.

Then we look at Ephesions 2 which backs up 1 Peter 2 and says the household of God is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.

Revelation 21:14 says the city has twelve foundations and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Jesus is the corner stone in the foundation of the Church. The Apostles are parts of the foundation of the Church. The Apostles built upon that foundation.....just like Scripture says.

Soooooo, once again, I ask you: If the Church is "everyone of us" then which ONE of us is the pillar and foundation of truth and which ONE of us do we go to that has the authority to call the other a pagan/tax collector?

Patient Mary

PS....I would have thought that @Nancy and @Jane_Doe22 would have helped you out on that instead of "liking" your incorrect interpretation

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi Jane Doe. How was your Christmas?

Hmmmm......sooooo your judging me on my (the Churches) interpretation of Scripture but you say God is the judge? Your giving me YOUR truth so why does your truth trump the Churches truth? I thought Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Who said the CC is God? I have made it VERY clear that I follow Scripture and Scripture says that we should take our differences to the Church and that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not you. Not me.

So Jane doe....in an effort to fulfill Scripture...to what Church would you like to go to and have settle this difference between you and me?

God is the pillar of Truth.
Quit putting anyone/anything else in that spot.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog


The Church as you mean it does not teach. It is the men and women in positions within it who teach. Each one of them still seeing through darkened glass teaches at best part of the truth and includes some lies. I speak not only of the Catholic Church but every other church group of my personal experience. I doubt that I will find any group that does not in some measure, even though perhaps unknowingly, include errors in their teaching.

Finally....you have revealed the truth.....YOU are the one who knows which church have errors in their teaching.

Why should we go to anyone else?

Thank you for your time!!

 

[Marymog]

God is the pillar of Truth.
Quit putting anyone/anything else in that spot.

No doubt that God is the pillar of truth. Which man or woman do you trust to properly interpret his word and come to that truth?

Scripture says that the house of God is the pillar of the truth.

What is the house of God Jane Doe? According to your above statement God is the house of God....that theory doesn't work.

Patient Mary

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No doubt that God is the pillar of truth.

Then why do you put something else in HIS throne?

 

[amadeus]

Bible study....LOVE IT!

In that passage, which is a letter to the Corinthian Church, Paul is not claiming to have laid the foundation of the universal Church, only the foundation of the local Church at Corinth. He is speaking of Christ as the foundation of the local, not the universal, Church. Paul could not have laid the foundation of THE CHURCH since he wasn’t even a Christian when that was done by Christ.

Without regard what he did in Corinth his words in verse number 11 are: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

The foundation is the same everywhere and had been even before he was a believer. He was not merely reciting his own history, but he was telling us what the foundation of the Church, the only foundation, was: Jesus Christ.

We should look at ALL of Scripture when talking of this matter. In 1 Peter 2:6 Peter quotes Isaiah 28:16 and it says that Jesus is the Church’s cornerstone, not its foundation. A cornerstone is only one piece of a foundation and this doesn’t exclude other pieces.

Do you presume that because you or some atheist manages to trip me up or knows the scriptures better than I do it will change what is true? Not all believers either Catholic or non-Catholic are theologians. We live by faith rather than by knowledge. We are saved, if we are, not according to our knowledge but according to our faith, which is the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". What do all of these things mean? What is a foundation? And what is a cornerstone? And what is the Rock which Mose struck when he should have only spoke to it?

All of these things are types of shadows of the Truth. They help babies get started [like toy dolls and toy trucks] until they begin to see for themselves. What a mature believer in Christ really sees in the things of God cannot be seen or understood by any other person to whom God has not shown the same thing.

We are, or are to be, different parts of the Body of Christ to serve in different function similar the difference in the parts and functions of the physical human body... but certainly not the same. We also, each of us, have progressed to different points along the road on the Way to the end of our course. Your arguments are ultimately not going to change a thing about the Truth anymore than mine are... What they may do if God sees the need is quicken something good in the heart of some person who reads them.

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." Isaiah 28:16

Looking at your verse, what is Zion? Is it not the place for the Son of man to lay his head which he lacked when he spoke these words?

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

And the Head is Jesus, no?

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

Where is it He is to lay his head? How about on top of the Church even our carnal head sits on top of our carnal body.

"For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it." Psalm 132:14

Did you learn about these types and shadows in the Catholic Church? If not, why not? Not to worry, I doubt many Protestant teach much about them either.

Do you really believe this is all my theory instead something that God through the Holy Spirit showed me?

Yes, God has shown me things. But there are things He has not shown me. Much of the church world, including Catholics and Protestants are almost on full stop working hard at becoming dead stagnate Dead Seas. Some individuals have not stopped, but they really are few. If they were not, would not we see a society a whole closer to being like God and His Son Jesus? Is not our society very similar instead to the society Jesus found 2000 years ago among the people of Israel who were supposed to be God's people?

Solomon wrote about 3,000 years ago:

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Ecc 1:9-10

The churches in general now are just like the Jews were at the time Jesus walked among them. No matter what God does or provides, most of the people murmur and complain rather than following Him. Most of the Catholics and most of those who came through the Reformers in the time of Martin Luther are like that.

Then we look at Ephesions 2 which backs up 1 Peter 2 and says the household of God is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.

Revelation 21:14 says the city has twelve foundations and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Jesus is the corner stone in the foundation of the Church. The Apostles are parts of the foundation of the Church. The Apostles built upon that foundation.....just like Scripture says.

Soooooo, once again, I ask you: If the Church is "everyone of us" then which ONE of us is the pillar and foundation of truth and which ONE of us do we go to that has the authority to call the other a pagan/tax collector?

Patient Mary

PS....I would have thought that @Nancy and @Jane_Doe22 would have helped you out on that instead of "liking" your incorrect interpretation

You are making me tired. I have patiently tried to explain so that you would understand and so that others really interested would look a little closer to what God really wants. He doesn't want you or me or anyone else on this forum to win a debate. He wants us to love Him first before anything else. Back to I Corinthians:

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity/love, these three; but the greatest of these is charity/love." I Cor 13:13

And then add to that Matthew chapters 5,6 and 7. Where are we? Help us dear Lord!

 

[amadeus]

Finally....you have revealed the truth.....YOU are the one who knows which church have errors in their teaching.

Why should we go to anyone else?

Thank you for your time!!

All you have discovered is what I have never denied... that I also am a fallible man. Where my friend is your first love? If you say Jesus but mean only the Catholic Church or any other church of men consider, as Haggai preached it, your ways!

"And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev 2:3-5

 

[bbyrd009]

Absolute Truth], but as Apostle Paul wrote in a verse I quoted for you earlier [I Cor 13:12] our vision is through a glass darkly which means it is less than perfectly clear. The AT exists, but until we have overcome all there is for us to overcome according to God, we see it [understand it, know it] only in part.

"the truth is, it depends"

If any part of it is in error, will it like all the wood, hay and stubble be burned?

did you hear the Romans marching up there too or was that just me lol

 

[bbyrd009]

God is the pillar of Truth.
Quit putting anyone/anything else in that spot.

or pls keep doing it eh

 

[amadeus]

No doubt that God is the pillar of truth. Which man or woman do you trust to properly interpret his word and come to that truth?

Scripture says that the house of God is the pillar of the truth.

What is the house of God Jane Doe? According to your above statement God is the house of God....that theory doesn't work.

Patient Mary

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Heb 3:6