The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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Ernest T. Bass

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Yes, but not the other way around.

Faith and repentance are obedience, obedience is faith and repentance.

Romans 10:10----------believeth>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Romans 6:16-----------obedience>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness

There is but one way to be saved/righteous therefore belief is a form of obedience.

John 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." "Believeth" is contrasted to "obeyeth not" meaing unbelief is disobedience/sin and beliving is obedience/righteousness. No one can be saved before they believe therefore one must first believe (obey) then one can be saved. The fact remains there is no case in the Bible of God saving/justifying anyone who continued in disobedience, rebellion to His will.
 
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justbyfaith

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Secondly – you don’t have authority over me. There ARE those within the Church, however, who DO have authority and are “over us” in Christ:

And these are not individuals? Who determines who has the final authority?

I'm sorry, but I much prefer to believe what the Bible says than to go off galavanting with the ECF's who may have been off-base in anything that they might've said. Also, I will not give the ECF's the same authority as the original apostles who wrote the Bible and set it forth as a standard for us to believe in. As long as an ECF conforms to what the Bible teaches, I'm okay with looking into their pov. But the moment one of them departs from the teaching of holy scripture, I will give holy scripture precedence over that ECF or saint throughout history.

If you want to depart from biblical teaching in favour of the teaching of some ECF or saint throughout history, that is on you. I know that the Bible is the word of the Lord. But if someone is claiming to have supreme authority that is greater than God's word, sorry, I'm going to believe God's word over them...they do not have that authority in my eyes

Thirdly – your claim that unless I agree with YOUR interpretation of Scripture, I am “wrong” is the most asinine thing a Protestant can say.

It is the most asinine thing that a Catholic can say...and you all say it.

And, as I showed you with SEVERAL verses of God's Word - His CHURCH is the final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Any bloke can claim to be in and of the church; and therefore claim to have the final authority over you and me as to what we believe the Bible really teaches.

And there are problems within the Catholic Church as concerning the practice of their ministers; and therefore the people who gave them the authority to interpret the holy scriptures for the rest of us were sadly mistaken to give them that authority.

The church, btw, is the body of Christ...and that means everyone who believes in Jesus and is born again.

So my interpretation is as good as yours; and is also as good as the interpretation of any person you want to place on a pedestal as being the primary interpreter of scripture for the rest of us.

I believe that the Pope stands, even in Catholic doctrine, as the vicar of Christ; that is, he is there in place of Christ in the eyes of most Catholics.

The term/prefix "anti-" basically means "in place of" or "against"

Who then is the Antichrist, but the Pope for most Catholics?

His power is greatly diminished in these days; but he does indeed still stand as being in place of Christ for many Catholics.

The seven hills of Rome are also spoken of in Revelation 17; the Catholic Church is there identified as the great whore of Babylon.

There's not ONE Verse of Scripture showing Jesus Baptizing ANYBODY.

Study your Bible . . .

Condescending.

At what point did His Church fail?

When the church became "married to the world" in the days of Constantine it became subject to great compromise. However, there always remains a faithful remnant that goes to Christ outside the camp; bearing His reproach.

"Believeth" is contrasted to "obeyeth not" meaning unbelief is disobedience/sin and beliving is obedience/righteousness.

I have not said otherwise. But I clarify this by saying that faith is an attitude of obedience and that it is the attitude that saves; not the obedient actions; while if someone has the attitude, obedient actions cannot be far behind.

No one can be saved before they believe therefore one must first believe (obey) then one can be saved.

No act of obedience is required; only faith.

However, a living and saving faith will normally result in acts of obedience.
 

Truther

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no its an old one being going around for a while, are you still going to deny that man in the desert salvation???
Instead of arranging to be baptized 40 years ago(as I did), I should wait until I am dying in the desert to deal with it?

You testify against God about Noah's generation now.
 

BreadOfLife

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And these are not individuals? Who determines who has the final authority?

I'm sorry, but I much prefer to believe what the Bible says than to go off galavanting with the ECF's who may have been off-base in anything that they might've said. Also, I will not give the ECF's the same authority as the original apostles who wrote the Bible and set it forth as a standard for us to believe in. As long as an ECF conforms to what the Bible teaches, I'm okay with looking into their pov. But the moment one of them departs from the teaching of holy scripture, I will give holy scripture precedence over that ECF or saint throughout history.

If you want to depart from biblical teaching in favour of the teaching of some ECF or saint throughout history, that is on you. I know that the Bible is the word of the Lord. But if someone is claiming to have supreme authority that is greater than God's word, sorry, I'm going to believe God's word over them...they do not have that authority in my eyes

It is the most asinine thing that a Catholic can say...and you all say it.

Any bloke can claim to be in and of the church; and therefore claim to have the final authority over you and me as to what we believe the Bible really teaches.

And there are problems within the Catholic Church as concerning the practice of their ministers; and therefore the people who gave them the authority to interpret the holy scriptures for the rest of us were sadly mistaken to give them that authority.

The church, btw, is the body of Christ...and that means everyone who believes in Jesus and is born again.

So my interpretation is as good as yours; and is also as good as the interpretation of any person you want to place on a pedestal as being the primary interpreter of scripture for the rest of us.

I believe that the Pope stands, even in Catholic doctrine, as the vicar of Christ; that is, he is there in place of Christ in the eyes of most Catholics.

The term/prefix "anti-" basically means "in place of" or "against"

Who then is the Antichrist, but the Pope for most Catholics?

His power is greatly diminished in these days; but he does indeed still stand as being in place of Christ for many Catholics.

The seven hills of Rome are also spoken of in Revelation 17; the Catholic Church is there identified as the great whore of Babylon.
Condescending.

When the church became "married to the world" in the days of Constantine it became subject to great compromise. However, there always remains a faithful remnant that goes to Christ outside the camp; bearing His reproach.
And there you go again thinking YOUR interpretation is best – when there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet insist that THEIR interpretations are correct.
WHO is right – YOU or them?

Scriptural interpretation is NOT up for grabs – and Scripture itself warns us about this:
2 Pet. 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


THIS is why Paul tells us that there are those who are “over us” in Christ.
1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.


Then, he goes on to explain WHO these people are and that we do NOT all have the same functions within the Body of Christ:
1 Cor. 12:28-31
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, APOSTLES; second, PROPHETS; third, TEACHERS; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers? Do ALL work mighty deeds?
Do ALL have gifts of healing? Do ALL speak in tongues? Do ALL interpret?
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts.


YOUR problem is that you refuse to listen to the appointed successors of the Apostles.
That’s WHY we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines ALL claiming that THEIR interpretations are correct.

What a mess . . .
 

mjrhealth

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Instead of arranging to be baptized 40 years ago(as I did), I should wait until I am dying in the desert to deal with it?

You testify against God about Noah's generation now.
You are denying Gods power to save.

Have fun
 

amadeus

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They find Christ in the Gospels, then are baptized into Him in Acts, then learn to walk with Him in the Epistles.

Stick to the script.
But was it not a "script", effectively a yoke, that the natural children of Israel were unable to bear?

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

Putting down and following black and white rules even written by the finger of God did not assure that all them would make it into their Promised Land, did it? Man could not then nor can he now in himself alone know where to place his foot next. But such knowledge, such power exists... where? The book, that is the Bible, may provide help like a road map but who is able to read the map and apply what it says to the actual road each of us needs to follow? Does every one of us stay on precisely the same road at exactly the same place on the road at all times?

As sure as one of us or a group among us tries to describe precisely the next step in the road that God will set before each of us something which will cause those not paying attention now to miss a critical turn in the road. Our boundary that keeps us on the road must be observed all of the time, one step at a time? God is our boundary line, is He not? He is our guide? Can we see Him? Can we hear Him? Are we paying attention now? Is there not a bottomless pit to either side of us in our walk? Without His Light we cannot see where the road is and with a misstep we may find ourselves falling into a pit [bottomless?].

We are walking on water like Peter was. What is it that keep us from sinking below the waves?

Jesus was there on the water with him. When Peter erred and looked away at the dangerous waters around him, he simply called out to Jesus who took him by the hand...
 

Truther

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But was it not a "script", effectively a yoke, that the natural children of Israel were unable to bear?

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

Putting down and following black and white rules even written by the finger of God did not assure that all them would make it into their Promised Land, did it? Man could not then nor can he now in himself alone know where to place his foot next. But such knowledge, such power exists... where? The book, that is the Bible, may provide help like a road map but who is able to read the map and apply what it says to the actual road each of us needs to follow? Does every one of us stay on precisely the same road at exactly the same place on the road at all times?

As sure as one of us or a group among us tries to describe precisely the next step in the road that God will set before each of us something which will cause those not paying attention now to miss a critical turn in the road. Our boundary that keeps us on the road must be observed all of the time, one step at a time? God is our boundary line, is He not? He is our guide? Can we see Him? Can we hear Him? Are we paying attention now? Is there not a bottomless pit to either side of us in our walk? Without His Light we cannot see where the road is and with a misstep we may find ourselves falling into a pit [bottomless?].

We are walking on water like Peter was. What is it that keep us from sinking below the waves?

Jesus was there on the water with him. When Peter erred and looked away at the dangerous waters around him, he simply called out to Jesus who took him by the hand...
Since when is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ a "yoke"?
 

Truther

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Christ is alive in Him we live, He will abide in us if we will abide in Him, but if you would rather the dead letter than the living word, that is you choice.
The N.T. is dead?
 

mjrhealth

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The N.T. is dead?
Should I ask again, do you prefer the dead letter to the living word??

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

and again

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Should I add, is Christ dead???

Your choice
 

Truther

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Should I ask again, do you prefer the dead letter to the living word??

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

and again

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Your choice
The letter it speaks of is the OLD TESTAMENT.

Read it further my friend.
 

Ezra

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You are losing it...an emotional wreck this morning.
Dump the silly commentary before it melts your theological thought process.
You believe anyone with a degree from a seminary, or just RCC ists?
good to see your still convince your self
 

mjrhealth

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The letter it speaks of is the OLD TESTAMENT.

Read it further my friend.
Why do we not we have Christ, did He not go to the father so that God could give up His spirit, so if we have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all who are in agreement and who are the truth, why do I need anything else. Is not our life in Christ, is not our faith in Him who can do what we cannot, is not our salvation in Christ, is it not done, finished.. so why do we need anything else cept to argue, and bicker and fight over who is the greatest in learning and study, if all men went to Christ we would have no need for any of this, but he knew it would be this way.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

and you still dont, they wont, and still he gets no honor from men..
 

Truther

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Why do we not we have Christ, did He not go to the father so that God could give up His spirit, so if we have God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all who are in agreement and who are the truth, why do I need anything else. Is not our life in Christ, is not our faith in Him who can do what we cannot, is not our salvation in Christ, is it not done, finished.. so why do we need anything else cept to argue, and bicker and fight over who is the greatest in learning and study, if all men went to Christ we would have no need for any of this, but he knew it would be this way.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

and you still dont, they wont, and still he gets no honor from men..
You did not answer me. I said the letter that kills is the OT, not the NT.
Agreed?
 

amadeus

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Since when is water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ a "yoke"?
The yoke is the bondage they put themselves into when people try put the words of the NT down in a set of black and white laws similar the laws God gave to Moses. Consider what Jesus brought: Life

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" Acts 2:38

Water baptism is a good thing, but if a person is immersed in the name without material water [H20), what difference might you see? What is the name? Where is the name? How does one get into the name?

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:20 This verse certainly is not talking about 2 or 3 people getting together in baptistry pool, is it? It is talking any time any where getting into His name so that Jesus will be in their midst. It is not necessary to get into a tank or pool of water every time we want to do this.

Many people meet regularly to worship God and when they do they should really all, [each person], be in His name to get what God wants them to get when they gather together. Without being the "in His name" such a gathering of people amount to nothing more than a social gathering of people. It may be good, but it certainly falls short of the "very good" that God made in the beginning [Gen 1:31].

The fact that they all were initially baptized in water with someone reciting the words, "in the name of Jesus" won't make them be "in the name" every time thereafter that they are physically gather together. What makes the difference are other things, such as praising God for God certainly does inhabit the praises of His people [Psalm 22:3]. Being in the name as I understand it means being in His presence. Every time we talk to God we should be in His presence. It is better with 2 or 3 or more, but we can do it alone with God only.