Well, many people have done many things in Jesus' name, and not all are righteous work, I would say. Crusades, Holocaust, to name a couple.
What is the deception exactly?
Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .
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What is the deception exactly?
Hi Davy,
I carry two Bibles with me, my Holman edition of the King James, and the Interlinear Apostolic Polyglot, something every Christian should have. I tend to read them in parallel a lot of the time.
Both of these words are from the same root, to decay or to corrupt, that is, to become corrupted.
Same things here, thanatos is death, these are derivatives.
What exactly in this tells us that this body isn't resurrected and transformed?
Romans 8
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Much love!
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I've been wanting to look more at this idea, now seems a good time.
Let's take for example a sin not unto death, the following example of stealing:
Exodus 22
1 If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.
5 If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
In these instances, stoning is not required, so then these are not sins unto death, that is correct?
But this is stealing, and you are saying this in unwittingly? Unknowing?
8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
This just doesn't seem to me to be describing something done unwittingly, unknowingly.
Is this the kind of thing you are talking about?
Much love!
1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Knowing the outcome of our faith, this hope, this outcome of our faith, is to become like Jesus.
We, who are God's children, will be like Him, this is prophetic. We know that when we see Him we will be like Him, this is our hope.
And having this hope causes us to live better life.
What if we do not have this hope?
What if our "hope" is not expectation the Bible portrays, but merely the wistful American English "hope", Oh, I hope one day . . ., what if that's all we have?
I hope I don't lose my salvation! I hope I can maintain my faith to stay saved! However you put this to yourself, That's not having This Hope.
This is a particular hope. And having that hope causes us to purify ourselves.
Much love!
Davy
Well-Known Member
If you're going to quote people, at least have the courtesy to finish the sentence instead of chopping it in half to try and make it say something else. Doing that chopping is the working of someone trying to deceive.
I'm not rebuking your 'person'; I'm rebuking your disrespectful and crazy attitude against God's Word.
The 1 Corinthians 15:53 Scripture is clearly 4 different Greek words with 4 meanings, as I showed from the Strong's. If one goes to other Greek Lexicons they will get the same thing. I simply used the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and you're faulting that in favor of a false response, because even the references you used don't support your false interpretation against the Scripture.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The "body is dead because of sin" is about a flesh body, not the "spiritual body" that is incorruptible.
The Spirit quickens our spirit that is INSIDE our flesh, which is separated from our flesh at death, or at the "last trump", whichever comes first. How soon you forget Eccl.12:5-7 and Matthew 10:28, and especially 1 Corinthians 15:45 about the last Adam (Jesus) being made "a quickening spirit".
This is in contrast to the 'living soul' idea of Gen.2:7 by the way...
1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV
... so no one can say Paul was still referring to that change being about that old flesh becoming a living soul idea.
And just to make sure others would understand Paul was talking about the change to a spiritual body, He continued with...
1 Cor 15:46-50
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Ask the two thieves who died with Jesus if they committed a sin unto death. When it comes to theft, the victim must have restitution. It is not enough that the thief gets punishment.
I'm referring to the covenant of Law between God and Israel, rather than the Roman law's provision of capital punishment.
Under the Law the thief is to make restitution, but is not condemned to death. Even if the thief cannot make restitution they are not killed, instead sold for thier theft. So this theft is not a sin unto death. But how is stealing not intentional sin?
Much love!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I agree with you on this. When we were without the Spirit and only acted out of our carnal nature, we would constantly stumble just like the person of Romans 7:14-23. It is the Spirit empowering us that takes us out of that carnal fleshly nature and we become slaves of righteousness. What we must do then is never grieve or quench the Spirit, our source.
If we can then live each day with a clear conscience, then we have assurance that we are living right. I don't know how anyone in the doctrine that the sins they keep committing are covered can have a clear conscience. They must know they've sinned. Or do they go so far as to now believe their sins are not sins anymore?
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Did they also have a sacrifice that covered their sin of stealing? Can you find that? I would be interested if a sacrifice covered that sin like an unintentional sin has. When the person is sold, it is for the restitution to the injured party. There could be no benefit to the victim if they immediately stoned them.
If they stole from an enemy nation against God's command, they would be killed.
Hi Davy,
Just to be clear, I like to quote just that particular part that I'm responding to. I find that long and complex arguments often turn on a single error, and in this instance, I believe there is an error right here.
It's not that I'm faulting someone's lexical homework because I just want to give a different answer that you find false, rather, I find different answers as I look at the Scriptures drawing from my Koine Greek schooling, and subsequent studies of the past 20 years or so.
You assume that I don't have good reason to say what I do, and that I must just be intellectually dishonest, prefering my own response over true understanding of the Greek.
You really couldn't be further from the truth about me.
Regardless of any of this, stealing, or so it seems to me, is an intentional sin, but is not a "sin unto death". So I don't see how this idea works out.
Much love!
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Cooper
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That will go over most peoples heads. Some will say it is salvation by works, while others won't have a clue about living a life that pleases God.
Cooper
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I cannot remember the scripture CL might know, but put it this way, would you say a glass filled with pure clear water, but with a tiny drop of arsenic in it, is pure water? So it is with us. None of us are sinless.
Deuteronomy 19
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, in whatever the liar was seeking to cause harm to you, that harm shall be returned to them, whether unto death, or maiming, or whatever the loss would have been.
False witness is shown here to not necessarily be a capital offence. Yet how is giving false witness untintentional?
Much love!
I suggest holding to the truth of this passage also:
Romans 8
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
The same One who raised Jesus from the dead will also "make alive your mortal bodies".
And I suggest holding the simple and plain reading.
Much love!
This is another . . .
Exodus 21
28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.
31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.
This is a sin both unto death and not unto death. If your oxen was known for goring people, and you let it gore someone again, then youare to be killed, however, if they lay a price on your life, you can buy it back, and be spared.
Much love!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
How is it forgiven without sacrifice? Are you still looking for the sacrifice? I'd like to see it.
I'm quoting a few passages that show intentional sins that are not punishable by death under the law in the Old Testament.
Of course, that is under that covenant. All sin kills, according to Romans 5.
There is the covenant made with God and Israel, and there is also a certain reality about sin itself.
Much love!
