The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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BreadOfLife

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Apparently, you do not seem to know the difference between asking you a question and lying.

Because of what you had posted, clarity was needed, but if you go flying off the handle like that, ….. I shall be expecting no answer from you because obviously, by your answer that you are not against praying for Mary, I cannot see how you can abstain from the evil appearance of necromancy.

Can you explain the difference between the two? Because I cannot see how you can.
Time for another Bible and Linguistics lesson . . .

The prohibitions in Deuteronomy are against necromancy - NOT supplicating prayers from those in Heaven.
Necromancy is the practice of seeking oracles from the dead. To put i in a way that YOU can understand - it is the practice of trying to get information FROM the dead.

That is what I said I would never do. I NEVER said that I wouldn't ASK Mary or a saint in Heaven to PRAY for me. That is simply asking a fellow member of the Body of Christ for prayer - NO different than asking a person here on earth to do the same. The ONLY difference is that those in Heaven have been made PERFECT in Christ.
Those of us on earth are BEING made perfect.

You REALLY need to do your homework before you go around making false accusations . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Scripture I knowa, but Catholic I know nota.
And this is precisely why you left the Church - because you knew nothing.
Ignorance of the faith is the NUMBER ONE reason people leave.

Thanks for at least having the courage to admit that . . .
 

Enow

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Wrong.
The Scriptures tell us that GOD hardened Pharoah's heart (Exod 9:12).
GOD
is in charge - not Satan.

STUDY your Bible . . .

Well, I can concede that God may have used the Holy Spirit to harden the heart of a sinner, but God can do that as God ( which involves the Holy Spirit too ). He speaks, it is done. His word will not return void. So per my view, I reckon I am lifting your sight higher to the Triune God rather than just the Holy Spirit for how God did that.

And remember the Book of Job where God had used Satan by "allowing" him to test Job but up to a certain point? So, yes, God is in control as Satan cannot do anything without God's permission.
 

Enow

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Time for another Bible and Linguistics lesson . . .

The prohibitions in Deuteronomy are against necromancy - NOT supplicating prayers from those in Heaven.
Necromancy is the practice of seeking oracles from the dead. To put i in a way that YOU can understand - it is the practice of trying to get information FROM the dead.

That is what I said I would never do. I NEVER said that I wouldn't ASK Mary or a saint in Heaven to PRAY for me. That is simply asking a fellow member of the Body of Christ for prayer - NO different than asking a person here on earth to do the same. The ONLY difference is that those in Heaven have been made PERFECT in Christ.
Those of us on earth are BEING made perfect.

You REALLY need to do your homework before you go around making false accusations . . .

And what happens when a person does not do such a thing through an oracle, but through themselves? How does that not apply?
 

BreadOfLife

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And what happens when a person does not do such a thing through an oracle, but through themselves? How does that not apply?
Not sure what you mean.

Necromancy is the practice of trying to get information FROM the dead.
Catholics don't do that. We ASK the members of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray FOR us.

The Primary definition of the word, "PRAY" simply means to ASK.
"Worship" is a secondary definition.

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
Pray

verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving


 

BreadOfLife

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Well, I can concede that God may have used the Holy Spirit to harden the heart of a sinner, but God can do that as God ( which involves the Holy Spirit too ). He speaks, it is done. His word will not return void. So per my view, I reckon I am lifting your sight higher to the Triune God rather than just the Holy Spirit for how God did that.

And remember the Book of Job where God had used Satan by "allowing" him to test Job but up to a certain point? So, yes, God is in control as Satan cannot do anything without God's permission.
Yes, that was my point.
 

user

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I wrote an article about Rev. 12 and the polyvalent symbolism therein over 15 years ago.
Just because YOU don't have a clue about certain Biblical principles - don't assume that others have the same shortcoming . . .

As for your flawed interpretations of Rev. 18:4 - your failure to understand that the "Whore" is apostate Jerusalem isn't surprising to me at all because you're blinded by Anti-Catholic Derangement Syndrome . . .

Hummm, I see your not going to give up your habit of stepping on others so to exalt yourself (you may wish to LEARN something about humility).

Be that as it may, soooo your saying that the merchants will be weeping and wailing upon her destruction...

Revelation 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

Lets take a look at what happens to your "so called" Jerusalem Harlot...

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27]And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Now let's take a look at the Harlot which you love and protect, the RCC...

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10] Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

16] And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20] Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21] And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
2]3 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Jerusalem has a glorious future, but your "Queen Of Heaven" comes to destruction with God remembering her sins!
 

BreadOfLife

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Hummm, I see your not going to give up your habit of stepping on others so to exalt yourself (you may wish to LEARN something about humility).

Be that as it may, soooo your saying that the merchants will be weeping and wailing upon her destruction...

Revelation 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

Lets take a look at what happens to your "so called" Jerusalem Harlot...

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25] And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26] And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27]And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Now let's take a look at the Harlot which you love and protect, the RCC...

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10] Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

16] And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20] Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21] And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
2]3 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jerusalem has a glorious future, but your "Queen Of Heaven" comes to destruction with God remembering her sins!
I'm not "exalting" myself at all - and I'm not "stepping" on anybody.
I am merely giving YOU the Scriptural and historical spanking you deserve for your false attacks on Christ's Church.

- Jerusalem sits on 7 Hills - Vatican Hill isn't one of the 7 hills of Rome.
- Rev. 17:6 says that the Harlot is drunk oon the blood of the saints and martyrs.
- Apostate Jerusalem cooperated with Pagan Rome in the persecution of the Early Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem killed the prophets.
- Rev. 11:8 refers to Jerusalem as "...the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."
- Isaiah 1:21 says about Apostate Jerusalem, "...the faithful city has become a HARLOT."

Now, STUDY your Bible and stop embarrassing yourself with your ignorant nonsense. . .
 

Enow

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Not sure what you mean.

Let's say a Catholic learns how to be an oracle so he or she can do it themselves rather than go through an oracle or a medium. That is what I meant.

Necromancy
is the practice of trying to get information FROM the dead.

As in getting information from the spirits of the dead, right? King Saul contacted a medium to raise up the spirit of Samuel to ask him to speak for him in contacting God, but because he went that way about it when God was silent to him, he got a judgement from God thru Samuel in verse 19 about his coming death in 1 Samuel 28:1-20

1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

So a medium called up a saint from beneath the earth and Saul asked him to intercede for him and it didn't help, now did it? If Saul could pray to a departed saint in the O.T., then he would not have gone the way with the medium, right? But he did because there is no other way to talk to departed saints.

Just as there are no way to ask any departed saints to intercede for us now for why there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus because He is God and that is His job to do that.

Catholics don't do that. We ASK the members of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray FOR us.

The Primary definition of the word, "PRAY" simply means to ASK.
"Worship" is a secondary definition.

If you look at #2 to both of your definition below; you may be able to see that the saints among the living cannot contact the departed saints because per one definition; is to get or bring by praying … to that departed saint as if he or she is a god to answer prayers and they are not.

When you look at the second definition of the intransitive verb, to address God or god with "supplication" which makes it more than just worship, right?

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
Pray

verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving


Can you see my point for why I am saying that or not?
 

Enow

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Yes, that was my point.

Unbelievers do not have the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit in them for why I had trouble seeing that was done by the Holy Spirit.

You did paraphrase a verse that said "God" hardened his heart. I would believe that rather than what you had derived from that verse to mean that this was done solely by the Holy Spirit. Maybe you did not meant it that way, but it came across to me that way. Anyway, that is cleared up.
 

BreadOfLife

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Let's say a Catholic learns how to be an oracle so he or she can do it themselves rather than go through an oracle or a medium. That is what I meant.

As in getting information from the spirits of the dead, right? King Saul contacted a medium to raise up the spirit of Samuel to ask him to speak for him in contacting God, but because he went that way about it when God was silent to him, he got a judgement from God thru Samuel in verse 19 about his coming death in 1 Samuel 28:1-20

1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

So a medium called up a saint from beneath the earth and Saul asked him to intercede for him and it didn't help, now did it? If Saul could pray to a departed saint in the O.T., then he would not have gone the way with the medium, right? But he did because there is no other way to talk to departed saints.

Just as there are no way to ask any departed saints to intercede for us now for why there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus because He is God and that is His job to do that.

If you look at #2 to both of your definition below; you may be able to see that the saints among the living cannot contact the departed saints because per one definition; is to get or bring by praying … to that departed saint as if he or she is a god to answer prayers and they are not.

When you look at the second definition of the intransitive verb, to address God or god with "supplication" which makes it more than just worship, right?

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
Pray

verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving


Can you see my point for why I am saying that or not?
WRONG.

Saul didn't ask Samuel to intercede to GOD on his behalf as we ask Mary and the Saints.
Saul asked SAMUEL to tell him what to do. That is the very definition of "necromancy."

As for your second point regarding the word "Pray" - you are again showing that you are unfamiliar with the word of God.
Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven interceding on our behalf by taking our prayers before God as bowls of incense.
Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME thing.

Catholics don't pray to Mary or a saint to ask THEM to take care f their problems.
We ask them to PRAY to GOD for us.

PS - "Supplication" simply means ASKING. It doesn't imply worship.
Check your dictionary . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Unbelievers do not have the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit in them for why I had trouble seeing that was done by the Holy Spirit.
You did paraphrase a verse that said "God" hardened his heart. I would believe that rather than what you had derived from that verse to mean that this was done solely by the Holy Spirit. Maybe you did not meant it that way, but it came across to me that way. Anyway, that is cleared up.
The Holy Spirit IS God.
 

Illuminator

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Unbelievers do not have the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit in them for why I had trouble seeing that was done by the Holy Spirit.

You did paraphrase a verse that said "God" hardened his heart. I would believe that rather than what you had derived from that verse to mean that this was done solely by the Holy Spirit. Maybe you did not meant it that way, but it came across to me that way. Anyway, that is cleared up.
Equating necromancy with intersession is as stupid as it is insulting. The essence of the doctrine of the Intercession of the Saints predates the canon of the Bible, and the evidence is there for anyone who wants to see it. The practice was never abandoned. The abolishment of all human intercession is a man made tradition. It denies subordinate mediatorship, which is made possible by the One Mediator in the first place.
 
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Enow

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WRONG.

Saul didn't ask Samuel to intercede to GOD on his behalf as we ask Mary and the Saints.
Saul asked SAMUEL to tell him what to do. That is the very definition of "necromancy."


1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Read it again, brother. Samuel referenced what the Lord told him in the past that was prophesied and had come to past, but in verse 19 is a new prophesy from the Lord that the next day Saul and his sons will be with Him, meaning they will die. So Samuel testified to the Lord having spoken to him and have added another prophecy from the Lord that Saul and his sons will die tomorrow.

That is the whole point of Saul talking to Samuel because if he could not get an answer from God, he would get one from Samuel from God and he did. The whole point of Saul asking Samuel was to get on God's good side again in wanting to know what to do because that answer was not coming from God directly.

So.. necromancy applies to Catholics praying to Mary & the departed saints when they should be praying to God.

As for your second point regarding the word "Pray" - you are again showing that you are unfamiliar with the word of God.
Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven interceding on our behalf by taking our prayers before God as bowls of incense.
Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME thing.

Catholics don't pray to Mary or a saint to ask THEM to take care f their problems.
We ask them to PRAY to GOD for us.

PS - "Supplication" simply means ASKING. It doesn't imply worship.
Check your dictionary . . .

Try to remember that supplication was part of the second definition of the intransitive verb for worship.

You said ( out of quote so you can read it again )

Necromancy is the practice of trying to get information FROM the dead.
Catholics don't do that. We ASK the members of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray FOR us.

The Primary definition of the word, "PRAY" simply means to ASK.
"Worship" is a secondary definition.


Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
Pray

verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner

2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Reads to me both worship and prayer are the same thing when both is addressing God.
 

Enow

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The Holy Spirit IS God.

There are Three Witnesses within the One God, right? So be careful to imply that the Father & the Son had nothing to do with hardening the Pharaoh's heart. All Three Persons of God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, right?
 

Enow

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Equating necromancy with intersession is as stupid as it is insulting. The essence of the doctrine of the Intercession of the Saints predates the canon of the Bible, and the evidence is there for anyone who wants to see it. The practice was never abandoned. The abolishment of all human intercession is a man made tradition. It denies subordinate mediatorship, which is made possible by the One Mediator in the first place.

Prayers can only be offered from the land of the living to God. Once saints departed, they are present with the Lord but are hardly needed to "help" in receiving prayers form the living when Jesus is God in being able to handle it all.

To avoid the appearance of evil in how men pray to spirits other than God, Catholics should only pray to God the Father by the only way of the Son.

Not even to the Holy Spirit BECAUSE He gives the credit & glory to the Son for answers to prayers.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If you do not believe His words the I reckon you cannot see yourselves doing this;

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.... 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The Catholic Church, Mary, the departed saints and even the Holy Spirit has been toted as a way to come to God by, but that is not the will of the Father, but I reckon many believers will find out the hard way that they were climbing up another way all along instead of coming to Jesus Christ for life.
 

Truther

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And this is precisely why you left the Church - because you knew nothing.
Ignorance of the faith is the NUMBER ONE reason people leave.

Thanks for at least having the courage to admit that . . .
No, I left the RCC because I found out they were the harlot of Revelation.

I don't want a harlot for a mama.
 

Illuminator

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The Catholic Church, Mary, the departed saints and even the Holy Spirit has been toted as a way to come to God by, but that is not the will of the Father, but I reckon many believers will find out the hard way that they were climbing up another way all along instead of coming to Jesus Christ for life.
1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

The man made denial of subordinate mediatorship is an affront to the Father/child relationship that God wants for us.