The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

Contextual ping pong.

lol

Do me a favor and debunk the points I made about the Woman in Rev. 12.

This should be entertaining . . .

 

[Truther]

Impotent, non-response.

Oh, ummm . . . "LOL."

The Catholic teaches that all Israel is Mary's crown and Joseph's mom/dad under her feet.....


12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; MARY with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...




Rather...

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman(ISRAEL) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...

And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe Jesus was deferring Christian leaders from using that title or be called by that title in the service of Him along with Rabbi & Master.

And that's because you are ignorant.
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" (Matt. 23:9) or “teachers” (Matt. 23:8) when they may actually be fathers or teachers? Absolutely NOT.
He is telling us that no man is to be considered father above our Father in heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all: “They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.” (Matt 23:6-7)

Consider the following passages:
- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).
- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).

STUDY the Word o God - don't just breeze through it . . .

 

[Enow]

And that's because you are ignorant.
Time for another Bible lesson . . .

Can you avoid downgrading posters and just address the issue, brother, or are you finding it impossible to do that?

Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" (Matt. 23:9) or “teachers” (Matt. 23:8) when they may actually be fathers or teachers? Absolutely NOT.
He is telling us that no man is to be considered father above our Father in heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all: “They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.” (Matt 23:6-7)

No. Jesus wanted us to avoid being like them for why He said not to be called by those titles when you read verse 8 & 10 with verse 9.

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

So calling no man father nor Rabbi nor Master is the same as no one calling you father, Rabbi, nor Master in serving Him.

Consider the following passages:
- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).
- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).

STUDY the Word o God - don't just breeze through it . . .

Jesus referring to Israel's forefather is not the same thing as addressing someone as a Christian Father now.

The KJV has the title Rabbi rather than "teacher" as an addressing title that would exalt them as a ruler over Christians. Paul always cited leaders as leading by examples to the flock rather than as rulers when Christ, the Word of God, is Head over every believer as He is Head over every church. Regardless, I doubt any one is addressed as teachers in the N.T. but by their actual name. Even modern days refer to such titles of preacher or teacher as a vocation, rather than a title to address that person by when they are addressed by their actual names.

 

[Truther]

Do me a favor and debunk the points I made about the Woman in Rev. 12.

This should be entertaining . . .

The Catholic teaches that all Israel is Mary's crown and Joseph's mom/dad under her feet.....


12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; MARY with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...




Rather...

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman(ISRAEL) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...

And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.



Very entertaining.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Catholic teaches that all Israel is Mary's crown and Joseph's mom/dad under her feet.....

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; MARY with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...

Rather...

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman(ISRAEL) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:...

And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

This is why I apologized to you in an earlier post for using a big word like "polyvalent" symbolism.
I didn't expect you to understand what it meant - just as I don't expect you to understand much of what I say because of your obvious limitations.

I have explained ad nauseam over many posts that the Woman in Rev. 2 is a polyvalent symbol who represents Mary and Israel.

 

[Truther]

This is why I apologized to you in an earlier post for using a big word like "polyvalent" symbolism.
I didn't expect you to understand what it meant - jut as I don't expect you to understand much of what I say because of your obvious limitations.

I have explained ad nauseam over many posts that the Woman in Rev. 2 is a polyvalent symbol who represents Mary and Israel.

No, you think MARY is over Joseph's ancient family.

You think Jacob and Rachel are under her feet and the tribes are over her head.

Crazy stuff, huh?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Can you avoid downgrading posters and just address the issue, brother, or are you finding it impossible to do that?

No. Jesus wanted us to avoid being like them for why He said not to be called by those titles when you read verse 8 & 10 with verse 9.

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

So calling no man father nor Rabbi nor Master is the same as no one calling you father, Rabbi, nor Master in serving Him.

Jesus referring to Israel's forefather is not the same thing as addressing someone as a Christian Father now.

The KJV has the title Rabbi rather than "teacher" as an addressing title that would exalt them as a ruler over Christians. Paul always cited leaders as leading by examples to the flock rather than as rulers when Christ, the Word of God, is Head over every believer as He is Head over every church. Regardless, I doubt any one is addressed as teachers in the N.T. but by their actual name. Even modern days refer to such titles of preacher or teacher as a vocation, rather than a title to address that person by when they are addressed by their actual names.

This is as silly and contradictory as it gets.

Soooo, we CAN'T call people "Father" or "Teacher" - UNLESS it is from a long time ago??
1 Cor. 12:28 states explicitly that some in the church are "TEACHERS".

We are commanded by God to honor our "FATHER" and mother.
You don't have a Scriptural leg to stand on here . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you think MARY is over Joseph's ancient family.

You think Jacob and Rachel are under her feet and the tribes are over her head.

Crazy stuff, huh?

Once again - "polyvalent" is FAR too complex a concept for a person as limited as YOU to understand . . .

 

[user]

Once again - "polyvalent" is FAR too complex a concept for a person as limited as YOU to understand . . .

Looks like BOL learned a new word and must beat it over the head of fellow posters to make himself look big and intelligent.

At any rate, you never addressed why you choose to remain in rebellion against God as he is saying to "Come out of her my people that you do not partake of her sins."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Looks like BOL learned a new word and must beat it over the head of fellow posters to make himself look big and intelligent.

At any rate, you never addressed why you choose to remain in rebellion against God as he is saying to "Come out of her my people that you do not partake of her sins."

I wrote an article about Rev. 12 and the polyvalent symbolism therein over 15 years ago.
Just because YOU don't have a clue about certain Biblical principles - don't assume that others have the same shortcoming . . .

As for your flawed interpretations of Rev. 18:4 - your failure to understand that the "Whore" is apostate Jerusalem isn't surprising to me at all because you're blinded by Anti-Catholic Derangement Syndrome . . .

 

[Enow]

This is as silly and contradictory as it gets.

Soooo, we CAN'T call people "Father" or "Teacher" - UNLESS it is from a long time ago??
1 Cor. 12:28 states explicitly that some in the church are "TEACHERS".

We are commanded by God to honor our "FATHER" and mother.
You don't have a Scriptural leg to stand on here . . .

Show me where the scripture explicitly states "calling" them "teachers".

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

As I read it, Paul is just referring to positions set up in the churches.

Take a step back and consider this; has Peter ever referred to Paul as father Paul in writing? No.

Has Paul ever referred to Peter as Father Peter or as the Pope or Vicar in scripture? No.

Then why believe anything that teaches otherwise outside the scripture when it runs against scripture plainly enough?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Show me where the scripture explicitly states "calling" them "teachers".

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

As I read it, Paul is just referring to positions set up in the churches.

Take a step back and consider this; has Peter ever referred to Paul as father Paul in writing? No.

Has Paul ever referred to Peter as Father Peter or as the Pope or Vicar in scripture? No.

Then why believe anything that teaches otherwise outside the scripture when it runs against scripture plainly enough?

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
Was Abraham their actual "FATHER"? NO. It is a Title.

- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
Was Paul their actual "FATHER"? NO. It is a Title.

- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
Was Paul their actual "FATHER"? NO. He became a spiritual Father to the Corinthians - just like Priest is a spiritual father.

- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).
Paul is CALLING himself a "Teacher" in these verses.

your entire argument collapses here.

 

[Enow]

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
Was Abraham their actual "FATHER"? NO. It is a Title.

Was Abraham around for them to address him by that title? No.

- St. Paul speaks of "our

FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).

Was Paul their actual "FATHER"? NO. It is a Title.

Was Isaac around for them to address him by that title? Again, no.

- For I became your

FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

Was Paul their actual "FATHER"? NO. He became a spiritual Father to the Corinthians - just like Priest is a spiritual father.

Did any one refer to him as Father Paul? Peter could have in his epistles and he did not. Same when Paul mentioned Peter. Paul did not address him as father Peter nor Pope Peter either.

- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a

TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).

Paul is CALLING himself a "Teacher" in these verses.

your entire argument collapses here.

Paul referring to the offices he was appointed to, doesn't count because no one was really calling him by any of those "titles", especially when his name suffice.

 

[RogerDC]

Satan chases Mary around?

The three possibly identities of the “woman” in Rev 12 - Israel, Mary, the Church - don’t apply to every verse of the passage. Each identity depends on which verse is read.

Satan chases Mary around?

Mary and her family had to flee to Egypt to escape Herod; they came back to Israel only after Herod died.

Are you saying that the "woman" who gives birth to Jesus in Rev 12 could not possibly be Mary, the mother of Jesus?

 

[RogerDC]

What about perversions done by Popes in Catholic history? How does that deny the doctrine of the infallible Pope?

Which “perversion” of which Pope contradicts the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility?

How does the “perversion” of that Pope contradict the Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility?

 

[Truther]

The three possibly identities of the “woman” in Rev 12 - Israel, Mary, the Church - don’t apply to every verse of the passage. Each identity depends on which verse is read.Mary and her family had to flee to Egypt to escape Herod; they came back to Israel only after Herod died.

Are you saying that the "woman" who gives birth to Jesus in Rev 12 could not possibly be Mary, the mother of Jesus?

What tribe was Jesus' physical lineage from?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Was Abraham around for them to address him by that title? No.

Was Isaac around for them to address him by that title? Again, no.

Did any one refer to him as Father Paul? Peter could have in his epistles and he did not. Same when Paul mentioned Peter. Paul did not address him as father Peter nor Pope Peter either.

Paul referring to the offices he was appointed to, doesn't count because no one was really calling him by any of those "titles", especially when his name suffice.

Ummmm, talk about Scriptural acrobatics . . .

You keep dancing around the fact that Paul is calling HIMSELF "Father" to the Corinthians. You are also avoiding the fact that BOTH Jesus AND Stephen refer to Abraham as "Father". Same goes for Paul regarding Isaac.
This is nothing but a pathetic semantic dodge because you fail to understand why Jesus made His comments in Matt. 23:8-9 in the first place.

Secondly - "Pope" is not even an official title of the Bishop of Rome - but merely a term of endearment that simply means "Papa", so your argument is dead on arrival . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

What tribe was Jesus' physical lineage from?

Translation:
"Duhhhh, I can't answer you until I take my foot out of my mouth."

 

[Truther]

Once again - "polyvalent" is FAR too complex a concept for a person as limited as YOU to understand . . .

Next time you pray to Mary, ask her how Jacob and Rachel and their 12 kids are doing for me, okay?