The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Illuminator]

WITNESSES Hebrews 12:1

This is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word “martyr.”

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
(Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament
(Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.​

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament
(A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:

‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.​

[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that bothmeanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament,
(ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

"Witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1 (Communion of Saints)

 

[Enow]

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

Pau is addressing saints down here to do that; Not up there. Jesus being the Only Mediator is Him taking our intercessions, His own intercessions and the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father so that whenever the Father says "yes" to any of those intercessions presented by the Son, the Son answers the prayers.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

The man made denial of subordinate mediatorship is an affront to the Father/child relationship that God wants for us.

There can be no many intercessors in Heaven when there is only One Mediator in Heaven to present our intercessions for others from down here to God the Father. When you consider Jesus as the Lamb of God at that throne of grace, then that is how our intercessions are presented to the Father. That means the Holy Spirit does not present His own intercessions to the Father because Jesus Who searches our hearts is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

No one else is at that throne of grace; not Mary nor any of the departed saints. Jesus is able to do the job all by Himself as our only Mediator so that when the Father says "yes" to any intercession, the Son answers the prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers. That is why the Father is to receive thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers. No one else can do that or help Him in any way in Heaven

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Read it again, brother. Samuel referenced what the Lord told him in the past that was prophesied and had come to past, but in verse 19 is a new prophesy from the Lord that the next day Saul and his sons will be with Him, meaning they will die. So Samuel testified to the Lord having spoken to him and have added another prophecy from the Lord that Saul and his sons will die tomorrow.

That is the whole point of Saul talking to Samuel because if he could not get an answer from God, he would get one from Samuel from God and he did. The whole point of Saul asking Samuel was to get on God's good side again in wanting to know what to do because that answer was not coming from God directly.

So.. necromancy applies to Catholics praying to Mary & the departed saints when they should be praying to God.



Try to remember that supplication was part of the second definition of the intransitive verb for worship.

You said ( out of quote so you can read it again )

Necromancy is the practice of trying to get information FROM the dead.
Catholics don't do that. We ASK the members of the Body of Christ in Heaven to pray FOR us.

The Primary definition of the word, "PRAY" simply means to ASK.
"Worship" is a secondary definition.

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
Pray
verb \ˈprā\

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Reads to me both worship and prayer are the same thing when both is addressing God.

WRONG on both points.

First of all - you are arguing in circles regarding Saul and Samuel. The whole point of this story is that Saul is trying to GET information FROM Samuel, who is dead. THAT is the very definition of necromancy.
If necromancy was simply TALKING to those who have died - then JESUS was guilty of necromancy atr the Transfiguration because Moses was DEAD.

As to your other point - a Catholic ASKING a saint in Heaven to intercede in prayer for them in pray is illustrated in Scripture:
Rev. 5:8
“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”

The prayers of the "saints" (Christians on earth) are being offered to God by the twenty four elders (the saints in heaven). We see that the saints in heaven hold an office of intercession for those on earth.
What "petitions" would the saints in heaven have to offer God if it weren’t for the petitions WE give them? The saints in Heaven have NO NEED to petition for anything for themselves.

 

[Enow]

WRONG on both points.

First of all - you are arguing in circles regarding Saul and Samuel. The whole point of this story is that Saul is trying to GET information FROM Samuel, who is dead. THAT is the very definition of necromancy.
If necromancy was simply TALKING to those who have died - then JESUS was guilty of necromancy atr the Transfiguration because Moses was DEAD.

As to your other point - a Catholic ASKING a saint in Heaven to intercede in prayer for them in pray is illustrated in Scripture:
Rev. 5:8
“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”

The prayers of the "saints" (Christians on earth) are being offered to God by the twenty four elders (the saints in heaven). We see that the saints in heaven hold an office of intercession for those on earth.
What "petitions" would the saints in heaven have to offer God if it weren’t for the petitions WE give them? The saints in Heaven have NO NEED to petition for anything for themselves.

We agree to disagree, brother.

 

[Truther]

Mary is a mediator between us and the man, Christ Jesus.

The Bible....

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



The RCC....


5 For there is one God, and SEVERAL mediatorS between God and men, the QUEEN OF HEAVEN, HOLY MARY, MOTHER OF GOD AND HER SON AND THE PRIEST ETC;

 

[BreadOfLife]

There are Three Witnesses within the One God, right? So be careful to imply that the Father & the Son had nothing to do with hardening the Pharaoh's heart. All Three Persons of God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, right?

Why are you moving the goal posts??
This was never about the Trinity - but about the Pope.

YOU made an argument that a sinful Pope could not possibly teach infallibly – and I reminded you that it was the Holy Spirit – and NOT the Pope who led the Church to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15). GOD is in charge – not Satan.

Then, I reminded you that God uses sinful men to do His will as HE pleases – men like Pharoah and Caiaphas and Pilate.

NOW – you’re getting into a semantic argument about the Trinity.
This isn’t an argument about the Trinity – but about the POPE teaching infallibly.

Try to stay on track . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

We agree to disagree, brother.

No - I don't agree to that.

You are disagreeing with a set definition of a word because it doesn't fit YOUR position.
That is nothing but moral relativism.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, I left the RCC because I found out they were the harlot of Revelation.
I don't want a harlot for a mama.

Then you shouldn't have divorced Christ church and become a Protestant.

Oh - here's a little Bible lesson about the Harlot of Revelation . . .

- Rev 17:9 says that the Harlot sits on 7 Hills.
- Jerusalem sits on 7 Hills - Vatican Hill isn't one of the 7 hills of Rome.
- Rev. 17:6 says that the Harlot is drunk oon the blood of the saints and martyrs.
- Apostate Jerusalem cooperated with Pagan Rome in the persecution of the Early Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem killed the prophets.
- Rev. 11:8 refers to Jerusalem as "...the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."
- Isaiah 1:21 says about Apostate Jerusalem, "...the faithful city has become a HARLOT."

Now, STUDY your Bible and stop embarrassing yourself with your ignorant nonsense. . .

 

[Truther]

Then you shouldn't have divorced Christ church and become a Protestant.

Oh - here's a little Bible lesson about the Harlot of Revelation . . .

- Rev 17:9 says that the Harlot sits on 7 Hills.
- Jerusalem sits on 7 Hills - Vatican Hill isn't one of the 7 hills of Rome.
- Rev. 17:6 says that the Harlot is drunk oon the blood of the saints and martyrs.
- Apostate Jerusalem cooperated with Pagan Rome in the persecution of the Early Church.
- Apostate Jerusalem killed the prophets.
- Rev. 11:8 refers to Jerusalem as "...the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."
- Isaiah 1:21 says about Apostate Jerusalem, "...the faithful city has become a HARLOT."

Now, STUDY your Bible and stop embarrassing yourself with your ignorant nonsense. . .

You got it all wrong....preterist.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Right, 1st century Rome.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You got it all wrong....preterist.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Right, 1st century Rome.

You got it all wrong....preterist.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Right, 1st century Rome.

BINGO.
Now, you're learnin', Eintein.

- Apostate Jerusalem is the Harlot of Babylon (Rome).
- Apostate Jerusalem cooperated with pagan Rome in the persecution and murder of the Early Church (drunk on the blood of the saints).
- She ALSO killed the Prophets of God (Matt. 23:37).
- She sits on SEVEN Hills - as do BOTH Jerusalem AND Rome.

Now, keep studying . . .

 

[Truther]

BINGO.
Now, you're learnin', Eintein.

- Apostate Jerusalem is the Harlot of Babylon (Rome).
- Apostate Jerusalem cooperated with pagan Rome in the persecution and murder of the Early Church (drunk on the blood of the saints).
- She ALSO killed the Prophets of God (Matt. 23:37).
- She sits on SEVEN Hills - as do BOTH Jerusalem AND Rome.

Now, keep studying . . .

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Question...

Did the Jews reign over the kings of the earth?

Please elaborate?

 

[BreadOfLife]

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Question...

Did the Jews reign over the kings of the earth?

Please elaborate?

Okay, Einstein - pay attention:
The "Great City" of Revelation is Jerusalem.
Rev. 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified.

YOUR turn . . .

 

[Truther]

Okay, Einstein - pay attention:
The "Great City" of Revelation is Jerusalem.
Rev. 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified.

YOUR turn . . .

No silly, Rev 11 is another city.

It does not reign over anything.

Rev 17 is a city that reigns over everything.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.



Get your story straight, preterist.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No silly, Rev 11 is another city.
It does not reign over anything.
Rev 17 is a city that reigns over everything.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Get your story straight, preterist.

WRONG Einstein.

NEITHER of these verse talk about "A" great city. They BOTH talk about "THE" great city.
Even though YOU think He is - God is NOT an idiot . . .

 

[Truther]

WRONG Einstein.

NEITHER of these verse talk about "A" great city. They BOTH talk about "THE" great city.
Even though YOU think He is - God is NOT an idiot . . .

They are both unique cities found several chapters apart.

One city is where our Lord was crucified and the other reigneth over the kings of the earth.

How long you been a preterist?

You better not go there, because I scalp preterists....LOL

 

[BreadOfLife]

They are both unique cities found several chapters apart.
One city is where our Lord was crucified and the other reigneth over the kings of the earth.
How long you been a preterist?
You better not go there, because I scalp preterists....LOL

Once again, God is not an idiot - even if YOU thin He is.
BOTH instances talk about "THE" Great City - not "A" Great city.

And if YOU believe that ALL of Revelation is in the future and has YET to be fulfilled - you're not only Scripturally ignorant - you're also historically bankrupt . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Pau is addressing saints down here to do that; Not up there. Jesus being the Only Mediator is Him taking our intercessions, His own intercessions and the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father so that whenever the Father says "yes" to any of those intercessions presented by the Son, the Son answers the prayers.

There can be no many intercessors in Heaven when there is only One Mediator in Heaven to present our intercessions for others from down here to God the Father. When you consider Jesus as the Lamb of God at that throne of grace, then that is how our intercessions are presented to the Father. That means the Holy Spirit does not present His own intercessions to the Father because Jesus Who searches our hearts is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give His intercessions to the Father.

This is what I have been trying to tell you. God answers the prayers presented to Him by the saints, NOT THE SAINTS THEMSELVES.

 

[Truther]

Once again, God is not an idiot - even if YOU thin He is.
BOTH instances talk about "THE" Great City - not "A" Great city.

And if YOU believe that ALL of Revelation is in the future and has YET to be fulfilled - you're not only Scripturally ignorant - you're also historically bankrupt . . .

Blah blah blah.
Fact is, there are 3 cities in Rev specifically spoken of.
1 city is earthly Jerusalem in Rev 11.

1 city is Rome in Rev 17-18.

One city is the New Jerusalem city found in Rev 21.

Now you learned something today, Catholic.
Thank me anytime

 

[BreadOfLife]

Blah blah blah.
Fact is, there are 3 cities in Rev specifically spoken of.
1 city is earthly Jerusalem in Rev 11.

1 city is Rome in Rev 17-18.

One city is the New Jerusalem city found in Rev 21.

Now you learned something today, Catholic.
Thank me anytime

Uh huh - and WHICH one of those is called "THE Great City", Einstein??

That's what I thought . . .

 

[Truther]

Uh huh - and WHICH one of those is called "THE Great City", Einstein??

That's what I thought . . .

All 3 are great.
The last one is greatest