You will not change any Catholic's mind, so why even go there?
I think many Catholics are open to their minds being changed if proof is presented.
But all I see are quotes from the Bible that don't say Mary had other children.
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You will not change any Catholic's mind, so why even go there?
If anything, those quotes would say that Mary did have other children. The fact that you take them as the opposite means that you would not change your mind, even if there was Scripture to show that Mary was NOT a perpetual virgin.I think many Catholics are open to their minds being changed if proof is presented.
But all I see are quotes from the Bible that don't say Mary had other children.
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
The angel said nothing about Mary to remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus, but scripture testified that Joseph knew Mary intimately after the birth of Jesus, meaning he had sex with his wife. We see this in reference to Adam in the O.T. in regards to Cain & later, Seth.
Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Some of the children of Mary were named when Jesus came into His own country & at the cross.
Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Now some may take the above verses as saying that it did not really say that Jesus's mother was the mother of His brethren & sisters, but we go to the cross for that confirmation.
Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him. 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
So Matthew 27:56 & Mark 15:40 proves that Mary was the mother of James & Joses and other children and not just Jesus in Matthew 13:54.
Also, when Joseph fled with Mary & the child, Jesus, into Egypt, no other children were present. When they had to register for the census, again, no other children were present. When they had to hide from Herod's son, they moved where Jesus was known as a Nazarene. So the children of Mary were born after Jesus was born in Jesus's country.
Joseph married Mary for the purpose of building a family. If Mary was to remain a virgin, the angel would have said so plainly and let Joseph put her away privately. The whole point of marriage is the two shall become one flesh. God would not perform that marriage if Mary was to remain a virgin, because that would go back on His word for what marriage is about.
Mary was a good wife to Joseph and not just a good mother to Jesus, but to her other children as well.
So it is a false teaching, a false witness of Mary, and a lie for saying the virgin Mary remained a virgin after marrying Joseph.
Mary did not have any children other than Jesus and there is not a single verse in the bible that says she did.
And nobody has produced one.
Quoting verses that do not say she had other children is not evidence that she did.
Because of those verses I agree with you that Mary did have children, I did mention this on another thread a few years ago.
So he had brothers by another mother? I'm sincerely confused as to how you can say that.Mary did not have any children other than Jesus and there is not a single verse in the bible that says she did.
And nobody has produced one.
Quoting verses that do not say she had other children is not evidence that she did.
So he had brothers by another mother? I'm sincerely confused as to how you can say that.
And it's clear she didn't remain a virgin, which seems to be the main thing Catholics want to believe about her.
So Luther was wrong,Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
The angel said nothing about Mary to remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus, but scripture testified that Joseph knew Mary intimately after the birth of Jesus, meaning he had sex with his wife. We see this in reference to Adam in the O.T. in regards to Cain & later, Seth.
Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Some of the children of Mary were named when Jesus came into His own country & at the cross.
Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Now some may take the above verses as saying that it did not really say that Jesus's mother was the mother of His brethren & sisters, but we go to the cross for that confirmation.
Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him. 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.
Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
So Matthew 27:56 & Mark 15:40 proves that Mary was the mother of James & Joses and other children and not just Jesus in Matthew 13:54.
Also, when Joseph fled with Mary & the child, Jesus, into Egypt, no other children were present. When they had to register for the census, again, no other children were present. When they had to hide from Herod's son, they moved where Jesus was known as a Nazarene. So the children of Mary were born after Jesus was born in Jesus's country.
Joseph married Mary for the purpose of building a family. If Mary was to remain a virgin, the angel would have said so plainly and let Joseph put her away privately. The whole point of marriage is the two shall become one flesh. God would not perform that marriage if Mary was to remain a virgin, because that would go back on His word for what marriage is about.
Mary was a good wife to Joseph and not just a good mother to Jesus, but to her other children as well.
So it is a false teaching, a false witness of Mary, and a lie for saying the virgin Mary remained a virgin after marrying Joseph.
not so, the Lord speaks to the Jews here, unless you're Jewish by blood and flesh, then you're not mentioned here:First thanks for the reply, second, we all are highly favoured, as a matter of fact, the apple of his Eye, Zechariah 2:8 "For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." and he made it very clear, Matthew 25:45 "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me".
The phrase apple of my eye refers in English today to something or someone that one cherishes above all others.
and "cherishes" means values greatly.
PICJAG.
we will answer this in a couple of VERSES, Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:not so, the Lord speaks to the Jews here, unless you're Jewish by blood and flesh, then you're not mentioned here:
So Luther was wrong,
Calvin was wrong,
Zwingli was wrong,
and every Protestant denomination before the 18th century was wrong,
until modernist liberals came along with their load of crap 200 years ago to enlighten us???
Jesus Brothers and Mary's Perpetual Virginity -- Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality
the term "brother".
Galatians 1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother". if one use the word G80 ἀδελφός adelphos (a-d̮el-fos') in this case, (by faith), it would be of no used. for the verse qualified it's use. by saying "the Lord's brother" and not "our brother" 2 Corinthians 8:22 "And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you".
but in direct relation to only his kin in flesh. scripture, Mark 6:1-6 "And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. (HOLD THAT THOUGHT). And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching".
now if James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon was his brothers in the faith why not mention by name the other disciples that followed him also, since they was his .... brothers also, (if by Faith?) that's if one use G80 ἀδελφός. adelphos. but no that was not the case. these was his brithers "by BIRTH from the SAME MOTHER, according to the flesh.
so no, Mary is not a virgin, nor is ames, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon was his brothers in the faith ... "ONLY".
PICJAG.
I have read your third point but the scriptures are clear, Matthew 1:24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:Scripture doesn't say that they were brothers in the flesh by birth from the same mother.
And if you actually read my post, brothers in faith is not the only explanation I gave for these brothers. See my third point particularly.
Scripture doesn't say that they were brothers in the flesh by birth from the same mother.
And if you actually read my post, brothers in faith is not the only explanation I gave for these brothers. See my third point particularly.
I have read your third point but the scriptures are clear, Matthew 1:24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS". she is no virgin period.
so are you saying that the scriptures are in error?
PICJAG.
Scripture doesn't say that they were brothers in the flesh by birth from the same mother.
And if you actually read my post, brothers in faith is not the only explanation I gave for these brothers. See my third point particularly.
Mungo, typical of God-rejecting, Bible-rejecting Romanism, following this ungodly cult, the fruit of your religion has been around for thousands of years. Your only evil objective is to twist Scripture beyond recognition.
"As our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.… 2 Peter 1:15
All day long they twist my words; all their thoughts are of my demise. Psalm 56:5
But no longer refer to the oracle of the LORD, for each man's word becomes the oracle, so that you pervert the words of the living God, the LORD of Hosts, our God. Jeremiah 23:36
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing. Hebrews 5:11
Your god, must be most proud of you.
Then explain how He deferred from his natural mother and natural brothers to refer to His spiritual mothers and spiritual brothers then.
Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
What do you mean deferred from?
I don't see what point you are trying to make.
How does what you said relate to my point?