Virgin Mary Had Other Children After Jesus

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friend of

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It kinda refutes the whole "perpetual virginity" of Mary that the Catholics like to go on about.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Those indoctrinated to see otherwise what scripture plainly testifies of, may not see it, or rather, may care not to see it.

Some of the children of Mary were named when Jesus came into His own country & at the cross.

Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Now some may take the above verses as saying that it did not really say that Jesus's mother was the mother of His brethren & sisters, but we go to the cross for that confirmation.

Matthew 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him. 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Mark 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

So Matthew 27:56 & Mark 15:40 proves that Mary was the mother of James & Joses and other children and not just Jesus in Matthew 13:54.
WRONG.
NONE
of these verses say that these are the children of Mary - not ONE.

Interestingly enough, however - one of the other women standing near the cross at the Crucifixion is names as the mother of James and Joses (Joseph). She is referred to as Mary's sister (adalphe) - who is ALSO named "Mary".

We know that this is NOT Mary's uterine sister because her name is also "Mary".
Also, Adelphe can be used for sister, half-sister, cousin, stepsister, aunt, neighbor, fellow believer, etc.

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome".

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".


When you compare the different accounts of the Crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus)not Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are SQUASHED by the Bible.
 

BreadOfLife

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It kinda refutes the whole "perpetual virginity" of Mary that the Catholics like to go on about.
Nothing in the Bible refutes her perpetual virginity.

As a matter of fact - not even ONE single extra-biblical writing from the Early Church refutes it. In fact, the UNANIMOUS testimonies of the Early Church are that Mary WAS a perpetual virgin and that Jesus WAS an only child.

The onus is on YOU guys to prove otherwise . . .
 
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Stan B

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Nothing in the Bible refutes her perpetual virginity.

As a matter of fact - not even ONE single extra-biblical writing from the Early Church refutes it. In fact, the UNANIMOUS testimonies of the Early Church are that Mary WAS a perpetual virgin and that Jesus WAS an only child.

The onus is on YOU guys to prove otherwise . . .
Mary was really not all that worthy of comment in the early church. In Jerome's 200 biographies of the saints and significant people in the church, Mary was not even mentioned.

About all we know about her later years, is that she died in Ephesus at age 65, and was buried at the Church of Mary, the church where the Council of Ephesus was hosted.
 

Pearl

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I think many Catholics are open to their minds being changed if proof is presented.
But all I see are quotes from the Bible that don't say Mary had other children.
Well if the bible says Jesus had brothers who would be their mother if it wasn't Mary?
 
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BreadOfLife

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Mary was really not all that worthy of comment in the early church. In Jerome's 200 biographies of the saints and significant people in the church, Mary was not even mentioned.

About all we know about her later years, is that she died in Ephesus at age 65, and was buried at the Church of Mary, the church where the Council of Ephesus was hosted.
I wasn't making any claims about her death.

I was stating matter-of-factly that the bible NEVER mentions her as having "other children". I also brought up the fact that not ONE SINGLE Early Church Father EVER claimed she had any other children - not ONE.

Pay attention . . .
 
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Enoch111

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Scripture doesn't say that they were brothers in the flesh by birth from the same mother.
Scripture does not have to use that terminology. What we have already shown is that Jesus had brother and sisters. But even if Scripture used those exact words, you would deny the truth and claim that that was inserted there by someone.

Let's face it. Catholics have substituted Mary for Christ, and that my friend is a very serious matter. Mary herself would condemn that as sacrilege and idolatry, since she recognized that her son was also her Savior. Maryolatry is idolatry, and her idols (images and statues) are in every Catholic church, and many Catholic homes.
 
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friend of

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Nothing in the Bible refutes her perpetual virginity

It doesn't say a lot of things in the bible. We can still infer that Jesus had siblings and did not have a stepmother. The fact of the matter is that Mary was married to Joseph.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well if the bible says Jesus had brothers who would be their mother if it wasn't Mary?
The Bible doesn't say He had brothers. The Bible says he had "Adelphoi".
time for a Bible and Linguistics lesson . . .

The Greek word, "Adelphos"(oi) is NOT like the English word "Brother". It is a FAR broader term.
It can be used for brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), step-brother, cousin, uncle, relative, kinship, same tribe, fellow believer and even a fellow countryman.

These are the statistics of the use of Adelphois(oi) in all of its variations in the New Testament:
244 instances are cases where the word “Adelphos” and all of its variations are used in the NT – 41 times (12%) are cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.

47 instances (14%) are cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.

256 instances (74%) are cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling.


Finally - in post #42, I already proved that the named adelphoi from those other verses are the children of the "other Mary" standing near the cross, who is the "wife of Clopas" - and NOT Mary, mother of Jesus.

Case CLOSED.
 

BreadOfLife

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It doesn't say a lot of things in the bible. We can still infer that Jesus had siblings and did not have a stepmother. The fact of the matter is that Mary was married to Joseph.
READ post #42 - then give me an educated rebuttal . . .
 

Stan B

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Well if the bible says Jesus had brothers who would be their mother if it wasn't Mary?
These people who are so dedicated to trampling on the Word of God, make absolutely no sense whatsoever! Biblical history regarding Mary and her four sons and two or more daughters is so simple, even a child could understand it. And if the marriage between Mary and Joseph was not consummated, then they were never husband and wife!! They were just shacked up!!
 
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BreadOfLife

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Scripture does not have to use that terminology. What we have already shown is that Jesus had brother and sisters. But even if Scripture used those exact words, you would deny the truth and claim that that was inserted there by someone.

Let's face it. Catholics have substituted Mary for Christ, and that my friend is a very serious matter. Mary herself would condemn that as sacrilege and idolatry, since she recognized that her son was also her Savior. Maryolatry is idolatry, and her idols (images and statues) are in every Catholic church, and many Catholic homes.
You haven't shown ONE SHRED of evidence about Jesus having brothers and sisters.

On the OTHER hand - I have pretty much destroyed your arguments in posts #42 and #50 . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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These people who are so dedicated to trampling on the Word of God, make absolutely no sense whatsoever! Biblical history regarding Mary and her four sons and two or more daughters is so simple, even a child could understand it. And if the marriage between Mary and Joseph was not consummated, then they were never husband and wife!! They were just shacked up!!
Then refute post #42 regarding those "named adelphoi" as being the children of the "other Mary" standing near the cross.
CAN you do that - or are you simply accustomed to spewing ignorant venom instead of Biblical fact?
 

Stan B

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I wasn't making any claims about her death.

I was stating matter-of-factly that the bible NEVER mentions her as having "other children". I also brought up the fact that not ONE SINGLE Early Church Father EVER claimed she had any other children - not ONE.

Pay attention . . .

My Bible certainly mentions her other children!! And as for what any church father said about her, they actually said nothing about her. She wasn't even given so much and an honorable mention in Jerome's biographies of the saints.
 
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BreadOfLife

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My Bible certainly mentions her other children!! And as for what any church father said about her, they actually said nothing about her. She wasn't even given so much and an honorable mention in Jerome's biographies of the saints.
WRONG.

YOUR Bible only mentions the "adelpoi" of Jesus.
NOWHERE does it mention them being the children of the mother of Jesus.

In post #42 - I PROVED that they are the children of Mary's relative - ALSO named "Mary", who was the wife of Clopas/Alphaeus.
Try again . . .
 

friend of

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Matthew 12:46-50

"Who is my mother and brothers"
 

BreadOfLife

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My Bible certainly mentions her other children!! And as for what any church father said about her, they actually said nothing about her. She wasn't even given so much and an honorable mention in Jerome's biographies of the saints.
First, I proved you wrong.
NOW, I'l prove that you are LYING . . .

Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity WHICH CONSISTS IN PERPETUAL CHASTITY, AND MARY WAS AMONG WOMEN. FOR IT WERE NOT PIOUS TO ASCRIBE TO ANY OTHER THAN TO HER THE FIRST FRUIT OF VIRGINITY (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from THE EVER-VIRGIN MARY (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of THE HOLY EVER-VIRGIN MARY by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of THE BRETHREN OF THE LORD NOT AS BEING SONS OF MARY BUT BRETHREN IN THE SENSE I HAVE EXPLAINED, THAT IS TO SAY, BRETHREN IN POINT OF KINSHIP, NOT BY NATURE. (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
And I thought YOU said that Jerome didn't write about her . . .

Didymus the Blind
It helps us to understand the terms "firstborn" and "only begotten" when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin "until she brought forth her firstborn son" [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, NOR DID SHE EVER BECOME THE MOTHER OF ANYONE ELSE, BUT EVEN AFTER CHILDBIRTH SHE REMAINED ALWAYS AND FOREVER AN IMMACULATE VIRGIN" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

Ambrose of Milan
Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], NOR DID THE VIRGIN SEEK THE CONSOLATION OF BEING ABLE TO BEAR ANOTHER SON (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388])

Siricius I
You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the Flesh. FOR THE LORD JESUS WOULD NEVER HAVE CHOSEN TO BE BORN OF A VIRGIN IF HE HAD EVER JUDGED THAT SHE WOULD BE SO INCONTINENT AS TO CONTAMINATE WITH THE SEED OF HUMAN INTERCOURSE THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE LORD'S BODY, chat court of the eternal King (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
IN BEING BORN OF A VIRGIN WHO CHOSE TO REMAIN A VIRGIN EVEN BEFORE SHE KNEW WHO WAS TO BE BORN OTHER, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

Leporius
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and THE EVER-VIRGIN MARY (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

Cyril of Alexandria
The Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly He was true God. Therefore HE KEPT HIS MOTHER A VIRGIN EVEN AFTER HER CHILDBEARING (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).

So much for your angry LIES . . .
 
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