Why do we need priests?

[BreadOfLife]

Revelation 1:6
And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 1:7 E
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

if you are a born again believer you are a priest and a saint right now

Yup - you're just not a Ministerial Priest - unless you are ordained one by the Church.

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more glorious and perfect than the Old Testament type.

 

[Pearl]

I should have said that the office of priest as a human mediator between man and God is not found in the New Testament, but is an invention of the RCC and was carried over to the Church of England when it broke away and became Reformed. But when the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) broke away they rejected the priesthood and went back to a board of ruling elders as existed in the early church.

I don't need a priest to intercede between me and God, nor do I need to pray to Mary to pass my requests to Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit in me, which means that I have God right inside of me. This makes any human priest or imaginary Mary totally unnecessary. In fact, for me, it would be a total insult to the Holy Spirit if I bypassed Him to consult with a human or some fairy-tale Mary instead.

Hurray!!!

 

[BreadOfLife]

If someone stays ignorant, like in your position, that's on them.
Gain the truth at all cost, is written. Until you do, if God permits, it is meaningless to you.

THe wisdom of the wise , of the educated ones, opposed to Jesus and contrary to God's Wisdom, is that ignorant ? THe world, like you, sees something great in man's wisdom and man's knowledge opposed to Jesus.

God calls what men call great , an abomination, as it is.

Sooooo, after my exposing you for perverting and butchering Luke 10:21 - that's all you have to say for yourself?

That's what I thought . . .

 

[Pearl]

Revelation 1:6
And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 1:7 E
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


if you are a born again believer you are a priest and a saint right now

Hurray!! Truth will out.

 

[Joseph77]

....a good, solid Bible Study....

Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, by Charles Chiniquy
Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, by Charles Chiniquy


Chapter 8 . . . The First Communion
Chapter 9 . . . Intellectual Education in the Roman Catholic College
Chapter 10 . . . Moral and Religious Instruction in the Roman Catholic Colleges
Chapter 11 . . . Protestant Children in the Convents and Nunneries of Rome

 

[Paul Christensen]

Sooooo, YOU think that intercessory prayer is wrong??

The Bible commands us to intercede in prayer for one another (James 5:16).
You've NEVER asked anybody to pray for you?? The members of your congregation DON'T pray for each other??

Tell me something - how is asking a saint in Heaven (i.e., Mary) - who is a fellow member of the Body of Christ - to pray for you "wrong"??
When was she kicked OUT of the Body of Christ??

SCRIPTURAL evidence, please . . .

Of I don't. But I go by Philippians 4:6-7.
"Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus."

But when I am praying for someone, I am not coming to God instead of him or her, I am standing alongside supporting that person in their prayers in accordance with two agreeing together.

I don't represent them to God as a RCC priest, or the fantasy Mary would do. I don't need them. But when my brothers and sisters support me in prayer, or I support them, then that is according to Scripture.

What you are contending about are two totally different things. A human priest does not replace the Holy Spirit in us.

But then, if you want to have a human, mortal priest represent you to God, then by all means go ahead. I'm not stopping you!

 

[Joseph77]

But then, if you want to have a human, mortal priest represent you to God, then by all means go ahead. I'm not stopping you!

Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, by Charles Chiniquy


Celibacy
Chapter 15 . . . The Impurities of the Theology of Rome
Chapter 16 . . . The Priests of Rome and the Holy Fathers; or, how I Swore to give up the Word of God to follow the Word of Men
Chapter 17 . . . The Roman Catholic Priesthood, or Ancient and Modern Idolatry
Chapter 18 . . . Nine Consequences of the Dogma of Transubstantiation- The Old Paganism under a Christian Name

 

[Philip James]

Revelation 1:6
And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Romans 1:7 E
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


if you are a born again believer you are a priest and a saint right now

Hello Dave!

Indeed. From the catechism:

1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

Peace be with you!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Sooooo, after my exposing you for perverting and butchering Luke 10:21 - that's all you have to say for yourself?

That's what I thought . . .

The fact that you are resorting to abuse and accusation shows that you have no real answer and are instead trying to discredit those who are giving Scripture-based answers to the issue.

That's what the RCC did in the Middle Ages. They set up the stake, got the firewood, and used fire to shut the ones up who showed through Scripture the corruption and falsehood of that church at that time. In modern South America where the RCC is dominant they are trying to shut the Protestants up by destroying their churches, beating up and killing the members.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hello Dave!

Indeed. From the catechism:

1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

Peace be with you!

The Scripture says that one must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, and be baptised in order to be saved.

So, small babies who are baptised can't believe Christ, can't repent of their sins, so their baptism means nothing. It is just an empty ceremony. They are just baptised, unrepentant non-believers, still dead in their sins and trespasses, believing in the lie which their church has brainwashed them to believe that because they were baptised as infants they are saved.

I wonder how many of the millions of baptised lost souls are now waiting, after death, for the judgment to come, and know that the church has lied to them. Oh well, they will have a whole eternity to curse the popes and priests, when they join them where they will end up, for lying to them all their lives in the church.

 

[Philip James]

So, small babies who are baptised can't believe Christ, can't repent of their sins, so their baptism means nothing.

Dear Paul,
Where is your faith man? Do you not think the Father will give this gift to your children if you ask Him?

For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."

Peace be with you!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Dear Paul,
Where is your faith man? Do you not think the Father will give this gift to your children if you ask Him?

For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."

Peace be with you!

The problem is, that if you are committed to the beliefs of the RCC, then I am not your brother in Christ, because salvation comes only through the RCC and nowhere else. This is the official teaching of the RCC as shown in the Council of Trent and ratified at Vatican II. So, according to the RCC, I can only have true faith if I convert to the RCC.

 

[Joseph77]

Do you not think the Father will give this gift to your children if you ask Him?

So you show faith in men, who are opposed to God's Word, instead of faith in God, who gave us His Word.

 

[Illuminator]

I should have said that the office of priest as a human mediator between man and God is not found in the New Testament, but is an invention of the RCC and was carried over to the Church of England when it broke away and became Reformed. But when the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) broke away they rejected the priesthood and went back to a board of ruling elders as existed in the early church.

I don't need a priest to intercede between me and God, nor do I need to pray to Mary to pass my requests to Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit in me, which means that I have God right inside of me. This makes any human priest or imaginary Mary totally unnecessary. In fact, for me, it would be a total insult to the Holy Spirit if I bypassed Him to consult with a human or some fairy-tale Mary instead.

This is called a straw man fallacy. The Church had NEVER taught that priests act as mediator between God and man the same as Jesus does. "I should have said" is an admission that you are dead wrong about no priests in the New Testament, so you dishonestly change the subject to the "sole mediator" argument. The sole mediatorship of Christ does not exclude subordinate mediators, as scripture clearly shows.

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

You ultimately deny a loving Father who invites us to intercede.

You, the reformers, and Knox, unbiblically have no use for "working together with God" because you think Jesus does everything so you throw intercession into the trash. Changing the subject when you get caught making fallacious arguments is standard anti-Catholic methodology.

 

[Illuminator]

The problem is, that if you are committed to the beliefs of the RCC, then I am not your brother in Christ, because salvation comes only through the RCC and nowhere else. This is the official teaching of the RCC as shown in the Council of Trent and ratified at Vatican II. So, according to the RCC, I can only have true faith if I convert to the RCC.

This is a lie committed out of sheer ignorance.
Catechism of the Catholics Church:
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

The Church seeks to heal the wounds of unity, she offers you an olive branch of peaceful co-existence and inclusion, but prideful ignorant Protestants like you spit on it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

This is called a straw man fallacy. The Church had NEVER taught that priests act as mediator between God and man the same as Jesus does. "I should have said" is an admission that you are dead wrong about no priests in the New Testament, so you dishonestly change the subject to the "sole mediator" argument. The sole mediatorship of Christ does not exclude subordinate mediators, as scripture clearly shows.

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

You ultimately deny a loving Father who invites us to intercede.

You, the reformers, and Knox, unbiblically have no use for "working together with God" because you think Jesus does everything so you throw intercession into the trash. Changing the subject when you get caught making fallacious arguments is standard anti-Catholic methodology.

The office of a priest is a mediator between man and Go. It was true for the Judaism, pagan religions and the RCC. All three of those priests perform the same function - mediate between man and God, or the pagan deity in the case of the pagan priest.

I have proved from quotes for the RCC official document that Mary intercedes for person in order for them to receive salvation, the the document clearly states that Jesus and the Father have to do what Mary asks them to do. This shows that a person can't be saved unless Mary intercedes for them.

When a believer prays for another, he is not representing the person to God as a RCC priest does. He is agreeing with the other believer to make request to God for what that believer needs from him. It is a supportive role, not a mediatorial role.

To use a mortal man to convey our requests and worship to God is ignoring the Holy Spirit is an insult to Him. So, you want to replace the Holy Spirit and allow a mortal priest to be Him for you, then go ahead. I won't stop you.

 

[Paul Christensen]

This is a lie committed out of sheer ignorance.
Catechism of the Catholics Church:
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

The Church seeks to heal the wounds of unity, she offers you an olive branch of peaceful co-existence and acceptance, and prideful Protestants spit on it. You refuse to grow up and will divide yourselves into oblivion.

So, when the Council of Trent clearly states that all Protestants are anathema, in other words, condemned to hell, are you calling that unity?

Pope Paul, at Vatican II said that the Church fully supports every canon of the Council of Trent. So what is the lie, that Protestants are anathema, or those in the church saying that we are all brothers in Christ and we need unity?

 

[Illuminator]

So, when the Council of Trent clearly states that all Protestants are anathema, in other words, condemned to hell, are you calling that unity?

More lies. Anathema does not mean "condemned to hell", and those anathemas that disturb you so much only applies to Catholics. The Church has developed past the 16th century but you are stuck in it. You refuse to grow up.

Pope Paul, at Vatican II said that the Church fully supports every canon of the Council of Trent. So what is the lie, that Protestants are anathema, or those in the church saying that we are all brothers in Christ and we need unity?

Anathemas apply to Catholics, get it? Not to persons, but to doctrines. The Church stopped using the term 200 years ago. Stop pretending you understand Trent (that took 18 years to complete) and Catholic teaching and development of doctrine because obviously you haven't a clue.

"The vivid Greek term anathema, meaning “accursed,” is directed by the Council of Trent and other Catholic ecumenical councils primarily towards doctrines, rather than persons, based on the ancient practice in the Church of condemning heretical teachings — a procedure itself derived biblically from passages such as Galatians 1:8-9 and 1 Corinthians 16:22 (the latter has anathema both in Greek and in many English versions). There is nothing improper whatsoever in defining correct doctrine and rejecting contrary notions. St. Paul does this constantly. The Catholic Church, however, makes no presumption as to the eternal destiny of any individual whatsoever (not even Martin Luther, whom many Protestants might suspect was on our “damned” list).

Most emphatically: neither anathema nor excommunication means “proclaimed damned (by the Church),” as many Protestants mistakenly suppose. The more literal meanings are “out of the Church” (in the sense of divergence from its doctrines) or “out of communion” (with the sacraments and the Christian fellowship of believers). Excommunication is perfectly in accord with Pauline practices and teachings as expounded in, e.g., 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 2 Timothy 2:14-19, 4:14-15, as well as our Lord’s express injunction in Matthew 18:15-18.

We hold that no one can be saved outside the Church, but a knowing and deliberate disobedience against it would render one unsaved. Others not formally members of the Catholic Church can be saved in their sincerity and ignorance, whether or not they are conscious that the Church was crucial in the process.

A person will end up in hell if they (continue to) fight against the Church and do not resist temptations of evil and Satan. This is essentially no different than a Protestant saying “a person will not be saved if they do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior,” or the Bible stating that “fornicators will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” None of these examples are definitive, prophetic, absolute statements of any given person’s eternal destiny, but rather, statements of theology, of what will happen, given the fulfillment of certain conditions.

The Church does not pronounce definitively on any individual’s eternal destiny (with perhaps the exception of of Judas). The Church hopes for every person to be saved, and applies penances in order to attain that end. The point of the anathemas is not condemnation per se, but a sanction which will hopefully cause the person to realize the seriousness and peril of their situation. This is all very biblical and Pauline.

The Church has neither the intrinsic power to condemn anyone to hell (that is God’s prerogative), nor the knowledge of who is there or not (except for that which it claims in the case of canonized saints). It does however, have the power to exclude people from communion with itself, for the purpose of ultimately reclaiming their souls. A deliberate and obstinate refusal to submit to the Church in such circumstances constitutes a serious, grave, mortal sin, which — if unrepented of — self-condemns one to hell by its very nature.

The Council of Trent (in the historical context of a revolt against Catholic teaching and authority) understandably emphasized Catholic teachings and condemned divergences from it, just as councils had always done with what they considered false teaching. Vatican II had a pastoral and ecumenical emphasis, so it stressed commonalities with other Christians and even other religions. Both are valid concerns and truths."
read more here

 

[Joseph77]

NEVER, NEVER!, NO NEVER !!! "grow into" the false gospel, no not ever, not even once.

 

[Illuminator]

The office of a priest is a mediator between man and Go. It was true for the Judaism, pagan religions and the RCC. All three of those priests perform the same function - mediate between man and God, or the pagan deity in the case of the pagan priest.

I have proved from quotes for the RCC official document that Mary intercedes for person in order for them to receive salvation, the the document clearly states that Jesus and the Father have to do what Mary asks them to do. This shows that a person can't be saved unless Mary intercedes for them.

When a believer prays for another, he is not representing the person to God as a RCC priest does. He is agreeing with the other believer to make request to God for what that believer needs from him. It is a supportive role, not a mediatorial role.

To use a mortal man to convey our requests and worship to God is ignoring the Holy Spirit is an insult to Him. So, you want to replace the Holy Spirit and allow a mortal priest to be Him for you, then go ahead. I won't stop you.

This fallacy has already been refuted in post #1074. Scroll up.