Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[reformed1689]

You with the spirit of the accuser of the brethren, you are going on ignore also. I only want to share with people who want to grow in the Spirit. You have been a waste of time as you like your head in the sand.

I do want to grow in the Spirit, but that is not what you offer with your gross misinterpretations of Scripture and false teachings.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Your right I don't understand,

It may be that you don't understand the NZ accent and the expressions that he uses. You may realise that it is a satire on NZ farming life.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So in reference to Mark 16: do you handle snakes and drink poison?

and @Paul Christensen

Do you know your Hebrew idioms? Knowing some is quite helpful to not make a fool out of one's self.

The snakes and poison here is the supernatural protection from God against one's enemies or other disasters.

 

[Waiting on him]

and @Paul Christensen

Do you know your Hebrew idioms? Knowing some is quite helpful to not make a fool out of one's self.

The snakes and poison here is the supernatural protection from God against one's enemies or other disasters.

Wow, I thought maybe you had me on ignorant.

 

[Waiting on him]

So you have been deceptive in your questions.

Bye.

Not being deceptive.. and I assure you I'm on no drugs, I actually lost a son in-law to this opoid pandemic about four years ago, he would be your age.

I live in the real world.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Wow, I thought maybe you had me on ignorant.

Possibly.

 

[DNB]

No men praised Jeremiah as he obeyed the voice of God and was rejected by those to whom he spoke. God told him that his words would not be accepted but that he was say them anyway. He obeyed God and God was right in that they rejected him and his message. Of course you have decided that they are not speaking a message from God... as if that was your job.

Yes, the proof is in the pudding, but the pudding is not a store bought one nor one prepared by any man of flesh alone. Neither should the quality of the taste be determined as good or evil by any man alone.

What is acceptable proof? That which is determined by some man or men using the scientific method or the proof which is acceptable to God? With whom does God share His conclusions? Apparently you are not even looking to Him in this but deciding according to your own knowledge, experience and beliefs. I and others have quoted verses of scripture to you, and while you might agree that those verses you disregard were written by men as inspired by God, you blatantly continue to disregard them in favor of your established conclusions. You have decided that anyone who is of God would and should only respond in the ways you have decided are appropriate. Would you not say that you have limited the way in which God could speak or respond to only the ways you have decided are appropriate? Have you listened to yourself?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:7-8

Job also thought he knew how God should respond... until he was given the opportunity to correct God:

"Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further." Job 40:4-5

That's fine, you somewhat, indiscriminately, accept people's claims of divine inspiration, whereas I prefer to test the Spirit.

 

[DNB]

And that my friend IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. No one appointed you as pope. So back off and mind your own business. I already pointed out a long time ago that you hold to some false doctrines. So perhaps should you start there.

You sound rather confused Enoch111, on several accounts. You tell me to keep my insights to myself, and then you attempt to discern whether my views are heretical or not, as though you are an arbiter of divine truth?
And, you tell me to back off from expressing my views on a debate forum, as though I have no right.
As I've always said Enoch111, you're narrow-minded, dogmatic and fanatical, and are in absolutely no position to even attempt to espouse, what you believe to be false doctrines or not. You just don't have the insight or soundness in your views!

 

[amadeus]

That's fine, you somewhat, indiscriminately, accept people's claims of divine inspiration, whereas I prefer to test the Spirit.

Actually no! I give people the benefit of a doubt, assuming that they speak the truth unless I have good reason to believe otherwise. What is good reason? Apparently different for me than for you...

 

[DNB]

Actually no! I give people the benefit of a doubt, assuming that they speak the truth unless I have good reason to believe otherwise. What is good reason? Apparently different for me than for you...

Ok, thank you, yes, maybe that sums it up then.
I think that we both agree that it's available, it's just our standards are different as how to verify if an inspiration or activity, is truly from the Holy Spirit or not.
Agreed, thanks!

 

[Enoch111]

As I've always said Enoch111, you're narrow-minded, dogmatic and fanatical, and are in absolutely no position to even attempt to espouse, what you believe to be false doctrines or not. You just don't have the insight or soundness in your views!

This is truly laughable.

 

[amadeus]

Show me one person on this earth today that never sins at all. You will not find one.

Without "eyes to see" you cannot be 'shown' because you cannot see such a person if even if he stands right before you. The example of Jesus and Pontius Pilate shows us the blindness of unbelievers but some who claim to be believers are equally blind because they lack faith thus quenching the Holy Spirit in them [if they had the Holy Spirit in them] for they deny anything they cannot see with their carnal eyes as if that were important:

"Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?... " John 18:37-38

Pilate could not see the Truth even when it, that is He, stood right in front of him:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:15

Those people and people today [including many who say they are followers of Jesus] may carnally speaking have 20/20 vision, but spiritually they are blind.

The ultimate result if they do not start to see is described here:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

 

[reformed1689]

Without "eyes to see" you cannot be 'shown' because you cannot see such a person if even if he stands right before you. The example of Jesus and Pontius Pilate shows us the blindness of unbelievers but some who claim to be believers are equally blind because they lack faith thus quenching the Holy Spirit in them [if they had the Holy Spirit in them] for they deny anything they cannot see with their carnal eyes as if that were important:

"Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?... " John 18:37-38

Pilate could not see the Truth even when it, that is He, stood right in front of him:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:15

Those people and people today [including many who say they are followers of Jesus] may carnally speaking have 20/20 vision, but spiritually they are blind.

The ultimate result if they do not start to see is described here:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

No, there is nobody on this earth today that does not sin. Besides that, you are OVERLY focused on the blindness of man and you use that to discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[amadeus]

No, there is nobody on this earth today that does not sin. Besides that, you are OVERLY focused on the blindness of man and you use that to discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

You insist that there is no one that does not sin today, but for how many hearts of the billions today are you privy to all that is happening within? What can God Not do in a man who simply surrenders to Him?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

In Apostle Paul's writing we read this:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Notice that with the pronoun, "we", he included himself in those seeing "through a glass, darkly". What he writes and what Jesus said and what we read elsewhere in the scriptures, it should be clear that growth is necessary for so long as we have time.

We all started out blind to God and the things of God. Dead men are blind. But then Jesus came and made vision possible for all and the continued improvement of vision extremely important:

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

 

[reformed1689]

You insist that there is no one that does not sin today, but for how many hearts of the billions today are you privy to all that is happening within? What can God Not do in a man who simply surrenders to Him?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

In Apostle Paul's writing we read this:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Notice that with the pronoun, "we", he included himself in those seeing "through a glass, darkly". What he writes and what Jesus said and what we read elsewhere in the scriptures, it should be clear that growth is necessary for so long as we have time.

We all started our blind to God and the things of God. Dead men are blind. But then Jesus came and made vision possible for all and the continued improvement of vision extremely important:

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

Because it is clear in Scripture that we continue to sin, we are not perfect in this life. That's how I know. We are not yet glorified.

 

[marksman]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them, a total heresy.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Your attempt at exegesis of these verses does leave out important points to make them say what you want them to say.

It is a fact that no one is free from sin. We are free from the power of sin. If we were free from sin we would not sin and we know we do because as it says in 1 John that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That means we do sin and those who are sanctified and holy are more conscious of their sin than those who are carnal.

The bit you ignored was these words "righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." That seems to me that some do walk according to the flesh so they are susceptible to sin.

And again in Verse 1 " There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." A second warning by Paul about walking in the flesh.

It is clear that some do as we all know that to be a fact. So the no condemnation bit is for those that walk according to the Spirit. Not those that walk according to the flesh.

Bearing in mind that Paul is writing to believers, he understood that some were not walking according to the Spirit. He put them into another class to those walking in the flesh and they were to receive different treatment. If they didn't get different treatment what is the point of walking according to the Spirit. Not logical.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That was hysterical. And I understood most of it. Of course, my mum was from down under!

 

[CharismaticLady]

See, here you seem to have an understanding of God's way/ Gods word. Shouldn't it be a piece of cake for you to answer my question, I'll post it again so many practice the laying on of hands for physical healings per Mark 16, why not the handling of snakes and drinking the poison?

The physical handling of actual snakes or drinking poison would be a sin of presumption. But haven't you ever found that you were supernaturally saved from an accident or some other misfortune? For me, I know that God gave me this house, so it is His house, and when we have tornado warnings and for everyone to go to their safe place, I go to bed instead and know that God will protect His house with me in it.

As for healing, you have to know who you are in Christ. You are a child of God and you can command healing in Jesus name, and the person or animal will be healed.

 

[Waiting on him]

The physical handling of actual snakes or drinking poison would be a sin of presumption. But haven't you ever found that you were supernaturally saved from an accident or some other misfortune? For me, I know that God gave me this house, so it is His house, and when we have tornado warnings and for everyone to go to their safe place, I go to bed instead and know that God will protect His house with me in it.

As for healing, you have to know who you are in Christ. You are a child of God and you can command healing in Jesus name, and the person or animal will be healed.

Psalm 57:2 KJV
I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Psalm 57:2 KJV
I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me.

I agree, it is God that does the healing, but we are His children with Him inside us. If you can ever get a hold of that truth, your words have power. And our commands, even more.