Are Protestants "saved? "

[amadeus]

true

But I do not see how this relates to what you said.

You seemed to infer Paul was different than Jesus, Even though he commanded us to be like him.

The example you showed here does not show any difference in the way these men lived and their focus, the things we were told to emulate

You should be slow to make inferences from what a person says, especially if you know little or nothing about the person. We are all, frail, corruptible people... until we are overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer. That means me too. I try not to say the wrong things, but sometimes I have been found not walking IN the Spirit as I should be and out come words from my mouth [or writings] that miss the mark. Paul is the one wrote this:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You should be slow to make inferences from what a person says, especially if you know little or nothing about the person. We are all, frail, corruptible people... until we are overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer. That means me too. I try not to say the wrong things, but sometimes I have been found not walking IN the Spirit as I should be and out come words from my mouth [or writings] that miss the mark. Paul is the one wrote this:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

forgive me

You made a statement,

Did not Paul put a restriction on those who would follow him here?

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

When we look at the ways of Paul and he does not appear as Christ appeared, then according to his own words we should not follow him.

I asked you to clarify this statement,

"When we look at the ways of Paul and he does not appear as Christ appeared, then according to his own words we should not follow him"

as found in the quote above, in case I misunderstood you, Or to clarify this statement

I was not making inferences, i was trying to clarify.

If you do not wish to answer. Just let me know and I will carry on.

 

[amadeus]

forgive me

You made a statement,

I asked you to clarify this statement,

"When we look at the ways of Paul and he does not appear as Christ appeared, then according to his own words we should not follow him"

as found in the quote above, in case I misunderstood you, Or to clarify this statement

I was not making inferences, i was trying to clarify.

If you do not wish to answer. Just let me know and I will carry on.

You did misunderstand and seemingly drew a conclusion. Sorry but as we both know communication is at times at the root of disagreements or misunderstandings. Does it work better with the word, IF?

If anyone looks at Paul and fails to see the image of Jesus, then as per Paul we should not follow Paul.

I suppose I used the word, "when", because from my experience on this and other Christian forums, I know that people have sometimes painted [seen or understood or presented] a picture of Paul as one who is wrong and out of step with Jesus and should be avoided. I don't agree with that, but I do not control everything that other people believe or do. Does this help?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did misunderstand and seemingly drew a conclusion. Sorry but as we both know communication is at times at the root of disagreements or misunderstandings. Does it work better with the word, IF?

If anyone looks at Paul and fails to see the image of Jesus, then as per Paul we should not follow Paul.

I suppose I used the word, "when", because from my experience on this and other Christian forums, I know that people have sometimes painted [seen or understood or presented] a picture of Paul as one who is wrong and out of step with Jesus and should be avoided. I don't agree with that, but I do not control everything that other people believe or do. Does this help?

Thank you. This is all I was asking

Forgive me for misunderstanding you

 

[Joseph77]

If they follow Jesus, they will, God Willing, see that Paul is perfectly in Harmony with Jesus, as Jesus Taught Paul. True, it may take time if they were not raised in the way they should go, and/or if they had a false teacher that taught them wrong.

 

[FollowHim]

You did misunderstand and seemingly drew a conclusion. Sorry but as we both know communication is at times at the root of disagreements or misunderstandings. Does it work better with the word, IF?

If anyone looks at Paul and fails to see the image of Jesus, then as per Paul we should not follow Paul.

I suppose I used the word, "when", because from my experience on this and other Christian forums, I know that people have sometimes painted [seen or understood or presented] a picture of Paul as one who is wrong and out of step with Jesus and should be avoided. I don't agree with that, but I do not control everything that other people believe or do. Does this help?

This reminds me of Paul saying if a brother in their conscience cannot do something, then we as brothers and sisters in Christ should not lead them into sin. He was talking about eating meat sacrificed to idols or eating meat when someone is a vegetarian. So our freedom can be sin for another. Paul was sensitive to the principle of following faith as God convicts us, rather than as another defines it. So if in faith we keep the sabbath rest each day amen, but if someone wants to celebrate a special day, Amen. Obviously one can take this too far, but the principle of sensitivity is a good one.

Some would rather ignore totally others views of faith, and not just say their lack of freedom is bondage but claim they do not know Jesus at all, ie. condemn them as lost. I wonder how many understand Pauls care and gentleness in this regard, God bless you

 

[Joseph77]

This reminds me of Paul saying if a brother in their conscience cannot do something, then we as brothers and sisters in Christ should not lead them into sin. He was talking about eating meat sacrificed to idols or eating meat when someone is a vegetarian. So our freedom can be sin for another. Paul was sensitive to the principle of following faith as God convicts us, rather than as another defines it. So if in faith we keep the sabbath rest each day amen, but if someone wants to celebrate a special day, Amen.

The Scripture referred to is about days other than the shabbat. The honoring God's Commandments never changed, was not ever 'flexible' as if allowing sin in any case.

 

[Episkopos]

This reminds me of Paul saying if a brother in their conscience cannot do something, then we as brothers and sisters in Christ should not lead them into sin. He was talking about eating meat sacrificed to idols or eating meat when someone is a vegetarian. So our freedom can be sin for another. Paul was sensitive to the principle of following faith as God convicts us, rather than as another defines it. So if in faith we keep the sabbath rest each day amen, but if someone wants to celebrate a special day, Amen. Obviously one can take this too far, but the principle of sensitivity is a good one.

Some would rather ignore totally others views of faith, and not just say their lack of freedom is bondage but claim they do not know Jesus at all, ie. condemn them as lost. I wonder how many understand Pauls care and gentleness in this regard, God bless you

Amen. A religious person is a babe concerning spiritual things. And for that person all is binary...right or wrong. They can't see the ...good, better and best...of the growth in Christ. In Christ there is the analog progression ...the race...the journey...but only if one is actually walking it out. Otherwise theories abound...all based on the binary salvation stage...the first baby step. Everything, for these, is always at the beginners stage.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen. A religious person is a babe concerning spiritual things. And for that person all is binary...right or wrong. They can't see the ...good, better and best...of the growth in Christ. In Christ there is the analog progression ...the race...the journey...but only if one is actually walking it out. Otherwise theories abound...all based on the binary salvation stage...the first baby step. Everything, for these, is always at the beginners stage.

yes, There will be many so called "babes in Christ" who die never having reached maturity

But they will still be "IN CHRIST" on judgment day.

 

[Episkopos]

yes, There will be many so called "babes in Christ" who die never having reached maturity

But they will still be "IN CHRIST" on judgment day.

This is false. A perpetual babe is a person who never bears a spiritual fruit. Read the bible....with honesty...about they who never bear fruit. Or they who bear a carnal fruit....wood, hay and stubble.

It is the difference between a blessing and a cursing. A reward or a loss of all things.

Sure these are saved...but saved to what? An eternal outer darkness.

So this is not just about getting oneself out of the lake of fire and saving one's skin...as many care only about. But it is HOW and WHAT we are saved to. God has vessels of both honour AND dishonour. In a great house there are also garbage containers as well as expensive vases..

Run to win and labour to please God as we struggle to make our calling and election sure in the fear of God!

Bear an eternal fruit by entering into the fellowship of an intimacy with God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is false. A perpetual babe is a person who never bears a spiritual fruit. Read the bible....with honesty...about they who never bear fruit. Or they who bear a carnal fruit....wood, hay and stubble.

It is the difference between a blessing and a cursing. A reward or a loss of all things.

Sure these are saved...

Thats what Paul said,

But they themselves are still saved, even thou as through fire

but saved to what? An eternal outer darkness.

Then they were not saved, They were lost. Because outer darkness is the punishment for the lost. not the saved.

So this is not just about getting oneself out of the lake of fire and saving one's skin...as many care only about. But it is HOW and WHAT we are saved to. God has vessels of both honour AND dishonour. In a great house there are also garbage containers as well as expensive vases..

Run to win and labour to please God as we struggle to make our calling and election sure in the fear of God!

Bear an eternal fruit by entering into the fellowship of an intimacy with God.

Your right, this is about being born again and made a child of God. Through faith in him, Where James makes it clear. Even babes in christ will have some works. Because if their faith was dead. it could never save them.

Should I assume you would be a parent who kicks a child of of your family and puts them in Jail because they did not grow up?

if not. Why would you suggest God would do that to his children, because they never grew, but remained babes?

 

[amadeus]

The Scripture referred to is about days other than the shabbat. The honoring God's Commandments never changed, was not ever 'flexible' as if allowing sin in any case.

If we get to a place where there is no night, how will we then be discern any difference in days?

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" Gen 1:14

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also." Gen 1:16

"And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." Rev 21:25

 

[amadeus]

Thats what Paul said,
But they themselves are still saved, even thou as through fire

Your words come from these verses:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I Cor 3:11-15

If the work of a man is burned but he has not Jesus as his foundation will he also be saved? If a man's foundation is undermined or pulled out and discarded, does it matter at all what kind of works he has? Can the proper foundation be removed? What kind of foundation did Adam and Eve have before they disobeyed God? If they had obeyed God would their foundation have stood fast?

Who has the answers to all of those questions?

 

[Episkopos]

Then they were not saved, They were lost. Because outer darkness is the punishment for the lost. not the saved.

You have not yet understood the stakes in the race of faith. You may think that Gentiles are better than the Israelites that perished in the wilderness. You might have something against the Jews who failed God. But God has raised the stakes...not lowered them.

So then you have bought into a false understanding of God's ways...and read the bible through much tinted glasses.

The wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. But in a great house are vessels of honour AND dishonour...from the SAME LUMP even. But you are not familiar with these ideas as being biblical.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your words come from these verses:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." I Cor 3:11-15

If the work of a man is burned but he has not Jesus as his foundation will he also be saved?

No. But then again, His works will not be tried by Fire. But at the great white throne, and he will be found wanting, as he is sentenced to the second death

If a man's foundation is undermined or pulled out and discarded, does it matter at all what kind of works he has?

I guess it depends on what the mans foundation was. If it can be undermined, or pulled out and discarded. Was it a firm foundation to begin with?

Can the proper foundation be removed?

Again, depends on what foundation is,

The man who built his house on a rock the foundation stood firmed, It was not undermined, or pulled out. It was not destroyed and could not be removed

The man who built his house on the sand, Well his foundation was destroyed, removed, Undermined, Pulled out by the wind and discarded

What kind of foundation did Adam and Eve have before they disobeyed God?

they stood on their own foundation. Which was perfect at the time, But weak. After their foundation was destroyed, removed, undermined and pulled out by their sin, They had to build a new foundation on God and his promise;

If they had obeyed God would their foundation have stood fast?

As long as they never sinned, Yes. But it was always in limbo. because the ability to sin was always there

Who has the answers to all of those questions?

I think God has given us all answers to these questions

 

[Episkopos]

Should I assume you would be a parent who kicks a child of of your family and puts them in Jail because they did not grow up?

if not. Why would you suggest God would do that to his children, because they never grew, but remained babes?

You are trying to compare humans with God. A human cannot cast a soul into the lake of fire. And we are not to fear men but God. So then your understanding is strictly human in nature...being in the dark concerning God.

Look at this parable...

Luke 13:7-9 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have not yet understood the stakes in the race of faith. You may think that Gentiles are better than the Israelites that perished in the wilderness. You might have something against the Jews who failed God. But God has raised the stakes...not lowered them.

So then you have bought into a false understanding of God's ways...and read the bible through much tinted glasses.

The wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire. But in a great house are vessels of honour AND dishonour...from the SAME LUMP even. But you are not familiar with these ideas as being biblical.

You have not understood the concept of grace, let alone what true faith is, your trying to run for it

Your still racing to try to earn it

And by the way, I do understand those concepts.

It spoke of the jews. Who were called Gods people. Some were molded to vessels of honor. Some were not.

Yet it all was done by Gods work. Seems you are trying to mold yourself. instead of allowing God to mold you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are trying to compare humans with God. A human cannot cast a soul into the lake of fire. And we are not to fear men but God. So then your understanding is strictly human in nature...being in the dark concerning God.

Look at this parable...

Luke 13:7-9 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

So God is less a loving father than a human loving father, Who would not kick his son out. But God will..

You should study the word agape and see what it means, That is what God has for his children. You seem to be preaching his love is not that deep.

 

[Joseph77]

A human cannot cast a soul into the lake of fire.

But couldn't they lead them to the wide road to destruction, even the road that seem right to them ?
And then , if they don't repent, they both fall into the pit ?

 

[Episkopos]

You have not understood the concept of grace, let alone what true faith is, your trying to run for it

Your still racing to try to earn it

And by the way, I do understand those concepts.

It spoke of the jews. Who were called Gods people. Some were molded to vessels of honor. Some were not.

Yet it all was done by Gods work. Seems you are trying to mold yourself. instead of allowing God to mold you.

Grace is the higher call with the higher equipping. Higher stakes. You see grace as a god having no more sense of sin...or becoming old and careless concerning a lack of holiness.

But in truth God is just as holy as He ever was. And a lot of people believe they have an unholy grace that gives them a free pass into an eternal salvation without any kind of responsibility for the actions in the body. (which is seen as works in this very skewed view)

So you and many will face God with that scheme...and see for yourself what the real outcome is.