Are You Free From The Law?

[bbyrd009]

Yawn

Good day, just not worth it anymore.

You just do not get it, and I am not going to try to explain anymore.

that would be awesome, but again, why quote me to tell me you dont want to talk?
Egomaniacally Grateful

 

[RogerDC]

But your theology, clearly stated by you, is that you believe you are justified by your works. I am saying that if that is so, you have had to live a perfectly holy life, without fault, since your youth. If not, then God can justly find you guilty at the judgment and make you pay the ultimate penalty, and be totally righteous in doing so. Break God's moral law and pay the penalty - unless someone pays that penalty for you.

Without performing good works, you cannot demonstrate your love for Christ …
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15);
”For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1John 5:3).

Without performing good works, you cannot abide in Christ …
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24);
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected” (1John 2:3-4).

Without performing good works, you will not be saved …
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

If you don’t perform good works, your faith is dead …
”faith without works is dead” (James 2:26)

Without performing good works, you cannot be justified …
”a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

 

[RogerDC]

He never implied anything youi did, that is what religion is all about , SELF look at me God look at what i DID

Okay, I will assume from your non-response to my question that you have no idea what “works” are. That means you would be completely clueless when you read James 2 and come across verses like this:
“a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”.

And you would be completely clueless when Jesus says to those in the Church of Thyatira, “I will give to you as your works deserve” (Rev 2:23).

And you would be completely clueless as to why Tabitha the disciple is praised for being “full of good works and acts of charity" (Acts 9:36).

Religion is all about SELF, look what I DID

Explain why the author of the book of Acts (God) praises Tabitha for what she DID - ie, for being “full of good works and acts of charity" (Acts 9:36).

Religion is all about SELF, look what I DID

Funny you should mention that, because we will all be judged according to what we DID:
“For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has DONE IN THE BODY” ( 2Cor 5:10).

 

[RogerDC]

James does not speak of being justified by works in terms of salvation. His use of justification is by way of demonstration, in that what we do after conversion demonstrates whether we are truly saved or not.

I disagree. For starters, when James says, “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, he does not make any distinction between being justified by works and being justified by faith.
And then he says, “faith without works is dead”, which means works are just as essential to salvation as faith. Get it? No works, no faith … no faith, no salvation ... therefore … no works, no salvation.

Furthermore, you abide in Christ by keeping “His commandments” -
“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9);
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24).

Works = keeping “His commandments”, so … no works, no abiding in Christ, no salvation.

“If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned … (John 15:6)

 

[RogerDC]

If you practice lawlessness

your not a true believer

you have been shown how the apostle John made this case and closed it so many times, why do you continue to ignore it,

Whatever “true believer” means. There is no mention in Matt 7:21-23 of any “true believer”. All we know is, those whom Jesus condemns were Christian believers. All believers sin - some will be saved and some won’t. Matt 7:21-23 demonstrates that believers are not saved by faith alone and that their works can mean the difference between Heaven and Hell.

 

[RogerDC]

Love has no laws, if you need laws you are not in Christ as Christ is like God is love.

You know laws

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers

You present a very poor argument - the very definition of “a righteous man” is a man who keeps the law!

 

[RogerDC]

As I said, if you need laws than you are not walking in love. there is no law against love, is Love a problem for you, seems to be for most of the religious, love condemning people.

No but that does not mean there is any law. .does your religion make you so ignorant.

1Co_13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co_13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co_13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

hope that helps.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but love is a LAW: Jesus said loving God and loving neighbours are the two greatest commandments - a commandment is a law. Paul said loving your neighbour is ’”the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:8-10) and is “the law of Christ” (Gal 6:2). James calls loving your neighbour, the “royal law” (James 2:8).

 

[RogerDC]

Jesus judges them and stated he NEVER KNEW THEM

Pray tell, how could Jesus judge them if He never knew them? He would have to know them intimately in order to judge their souls and there eternal fate. Would you like your eternal destiny to be judged by someone who doesn't know you?
Jesus knows everyone intimately - believers and non-believers alike. According to you, in Matt 7:21-23, Jesus is condemning people He “never knew” - absurd!

Therefore, when Jesus says “I never knew you” in Matt 7:21-23, He is obviously not speaking literally, but using a figure-of-speech that means “I disown you, so it’s as if I never knew you”. Come on, it ain’t rocket science.

Furthermore, the believers in Matt 7:21-23 cast out demons, prophesied and performed miracles in Jesus’ name. They could not perform those supernatural acts unless Jesus gave them the power to do so - in which case, how could it be that Jesus “never knew” them? According to you, Jesus gave supernatural powers to people He “never knew” - absurd! Of course He knew them!

 

[RogerDC]

No one will go to hell because of personal sin.

So that means a believer can give in to ANY temptation and commit any sin he so desires and still be saved. Imagine that … a Christian - whom God commands to “be holy” (1Peter 1) - can lie, cheat, deceive, steal, commit adultery, practise homosexuality, molest, rape, murder anyone he doesn’t like … and still be saved!!

 

[RogerDC]

No I am not perfect, and this is not repentance, repentance leads to faith, an faith leads to obedience,
why is this concept so hard to grasp?

That concept is “so hard to grasp” because it’s incorrect - repentance does not precede faith. Faith is the very first step on the road on the road to salvation; with faith comes the grace that cooperates with the believer’s free will to enable repentance, which is saying No to sin, by obeying His commandments (or as Paul says, “He who through faith is righteous shall live” - Romans 1:17). So the process is faith, repentance, obedience (although obedience is actually part of repentance).

Romans 2:4 says, “Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” Paul uses the word “kindness” here to refer to grace - it is grace gives those with faith the power to repent of their sins (ie, obey His commandments).

Obedience leads to righteousness, which leads to sanctification (aka “holiness”), which leads to eternal life (Romans 6:16-22). Disobedience is sin, the wages of which is eternal death (Romans 6:23).

Is your God so weak and cannot determine by ones heart if he true faith or not

Scripture says God tests our hearts (love) and our faith:
“Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness” (James 1:2-3);

”now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith … is tested by fire (1Peter 1:6-7);

1Thess 2:4 says God “tests our hearts”;

”Blessed be the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12);

”By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac” (Heb 11:17);
”After these things, God tested Abraham … Do not lay you hand on the lad or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:1-12).

In other words, God did not “know” Abraham’s heart until after he was tested.

”Was not Abraham justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (James 2:21).

Like Abraham, God tests us by our obedience to His commandments, and it is our obedience to His commandments (“works”) that justify us (James 2:24). It has been this way from the very beginning - God tested Adam and Eve by commanding them not to eat from the tree of good and evil.

Oh and works, works are anything you do in love

Not quite - ”works” can also be evil (Romans 2:5-8). Good works are obeying His commandments; evil works are disobeying His commandments.

 

[RogerDC]

The law of Christ is still law, love is the power that brings victory, and law has no condemnation because we are victorious in Christ.

Are you saying there is no condemnation for breaking God’s laws?

 

[RogerDC]

EG's definition of "repentance" is confusing - I think he believes repentance is simply a change of heart and mind - it doesn't include works, as in changing one's behaviour to stop sinning.

And you would think wrong

That's the problem with you people. YOU THINK to much, Instead of sitting down and trying to talk to people to understand what they believe

Once again

TRUE repentance leads to TRUE saving faith

TRUE saving faith leads to TRUE living salvation

TRUE living salvation leads to true works of God.

Can you show the room you understand what EG is saying? Or will you continue to bear false witness against him?

Okay, you seem to saying now that repentance does include works. In that case, why did you state elsewhere (on a different thread) that “repentance is not works”? I’m confused.

 

[RogerDC]

If you practice lawlessness

your not a true believer

Matt 7:21-23 is not about a lack of faith. Jesus condemns them for their “iniquities” - in other words, their evil works - just as 2Cor 5:10 says … “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” Those believers who do good works will receive “good”; those believers who do evil works will receive “evil”.

 

[mjrhealth]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but love is a LAW: Jesus said loving God and loving neighbours are the two greatest commandments - a commandment is a law. Paul said loving your neighbour is ’”the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:8-10) and is “the law of Christ” (Gal 6:2). James calls loving your neighbour, the “royal law” (James 2:8).

No the law is not love, do you know what the law did.

Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Rom_7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

being bearer of bad news, all who hang on to the law and are judged by the law, Die, that is all the law does, kill people.

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

so to bring you some really good news, I know you dont like it, you are not under the law when you are in Christ, and you never where if you are a gentile.

See rom8:3 about the flesh, religion all about self pleasing the flesh but in case you missed it.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

See what HE is saying, is that those who have never tasted of the Holy Spirit, the "new wine". prefer the LAw the "old wine" because they have this foolish notion that the law is better. But they will all change there mind on judgement day, when they realize Jesus offered them a better way.

 

[mjrhealth]

You present a very poor argument - the very definition of “a righteous man” is a man who keeps the law!

Not according to the bible you keep quoting.... A righteous man is one who is in Christ, we have no righteousness of our own

 

[Paul Christensen]

Without performing good works, you cannot demonstrate your love for Christ …
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15);
”For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments” (1John 5:3).

Without performing good works, you cannot abide in Christ …
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24);
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected” (1John 2:3-4).

Without performing good works, you will not be saved …
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

If you don’t perform good works, your faith is dead …
”faith without works is dead” (James 2:26)

Without performing good works, you cannot be justified …
”a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

Oh well. Good luck on that one.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I disagree. For starters, when James says, “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, he does not make any distinction between being justified by works and being justified by faith.
And then he says, “faith without works is dead”, which means works are just as essential to salvation as faith. Get it? No works, no faith … no faith, no salvation ... therefore … no works, no salvation.

Furthermore, you abide in Christ by keeping “His commandments” -
“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9);
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24).

Works = keeping “His commandments”, so … no works, no abiding in Christ, no salvation.

“If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned … (John 15:6)

That's it then. Go for it and let's see what happens at the judgment.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Whatever “true believer” means. There is no mention in Matt 7:21-23 of any “true believer”. All we know is, those whom Jesus condemns were Christian believers. All believers sin - some will be saved and some won’t. Matt 7:21-23 demonstrates that believers are not saved by faith alone and that their works can mean the difference between Heaven and Hell.

All me know in matt is Jesus said HE NEVER KNEW THEM

Now if you want that to mean they were once saved and now are lost.

Well you would be MISTAKEN

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Pray tell, how could Jesus judge them if He never knew them? He would have to know them intimately in order to judge their souls and there eternal fate. Would you like your eternal destiny to be judged by someone who doesn't know you?
Jesus knows everyone intimately - believers and non-believers alike. According to you, in Matt 7:21-23, Jesus is condemning people He “never knew” - absurd!

Therefore, when Jesus says “I never knew you” in Matt 7:21-23, He is obviously not speaking literally, but using a figure-of-speech that means “I disown you, so it’s as if I never knew you”. Come on, it ain’t rocket science.

Furthermore, the believers in Matt 7:21-23 cast out demons, prophesied and performed miracles in Jesus’ name. They could not perform those supernatural acts unless Jesus gave them the power to do so - in which case, how could it be that Jesus “never knew” them? According to you, Jesus gave supernatural powers to people He “never knew” - absurd! Of course He knew them!

Jesus said he NEVER KNEW THEM

it means he never had a relationship with them.

He also said they practiced lawlessness. And according to John, People who practice sin have NEVER KNOWN GOD.

Now if you want to continue to ignore this fact. That is your preoperative, Your free to believe what you want.

But me?

I think I will trust Jesus and suggest you do also. I mean, Our eternity is at stake is it not?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So that means a believer can give in to ANY temptation and commit any sin he so desires and still be saved. Imagine that … a Christian - whom God commands to “be holy” (1Peter 1) - can lie, cheat, deceive, steal, commit adultery, practise homosexuality, molest, rape, murder anyone he doesn’t like … and still be saved!!

if you keep the whole law and stumble in one area, As James said we are guilty of the whole law

So what you just did, Is condemn yourself and every other person who ever lived.

Of course, Unless you think you are sinless. if thats the case, Then you never needed Christ to begin with. So congratulations if this is true