Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Why do the fatalists always believe they are among the predestined?
If you are correct, chances are you are born for damnation and only think you are saved John Calvin believed God temporarily enlightens some then drops them into hell anyway. " Oops, just kidding, you weren't really elect."
Monster God indeed.

Wadr, are you talking to me? Are you asking me or the fatalists or John Calvin?

Tong
R0080

 

[Renniks]

My question is, do you know what that means?

It means Jesus is the only way to God.

 

[Renniks]

Wadr, are you talking to me? Are you asking me or the fatalists or John Calvin?

Tong
R0080

The fatalists, which includes you.
If someone is irresistibly chosen for salvation over someone else, that is fatalism.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I hear your words, but am not seeing your proof.

I don't care if you believe me. You don't know me. Just believe God. My proof is the Word of God. What He wrote He delivered unto us who believe. I pray you experience His power to love.

 

[DNB]

I don't care if you believe me. You don't know me. Just believe God. My proof is the Word of God. What He wrote He delivered unto us who believe. I pray you experience His power to love.

You're misreading the text.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're misreading the text.

What text? From what post?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep?

Because God wanted all human beings to be the sheep of Christ. Those who are not sheep have chosen to REJECT the Shepherd. Now please pay close attention to the words of Christ (and believe them):

JOHN 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Did you get that?

Yes sir, I got what the passage says. Thank you. I hope and pray that you got it as well, but this time correctly.

Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep?

Your answer: Because God wanted all human beings to be the sheep of Christ.

Sure is a proper answer, is it not?

I am wondering why there is no one who employs the "foreknowledge" reasoning here. Many here believes that the Christians were chosen by God even before the foundation of the world in that God can see in the future and so knows them who will believe in Jesus Christ. Then why not use that same reasoning here? Besides, with that position, it follows that the sheep already are known by God even before creation, so that would explain why Jesus need not die for them whom are not His sheep.

If Jesus Christ died for all mankind, then it can be said that He died for all those who will be cast into the lake of fire. And for what that He died for them? Nothing. His death accounts for nothing. Precious blood wasted, useless, worthless, and powerless, for them billions of wicked and sinful men.

Something to ponder about.

And also, I suggest the parable of the wheat and the tares is a good read which somehow will shed light about what I have been telling you that there is no becoming a sheep. You will find the same truth with the wheat.

Tong
R0081

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In your Post#242, you asked "How do you believe someone is a sheep?". I gave you a quick and short answer which is "No one truly knows except God. We share or preach the gospel. If someone hears and ends up repenting unto God and have faith in Jesus Christ, I could consider him to be a sheep, for Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice". Now, Jesus also said of the sheep, "and they follow me". So, seeing him obeying and keeping the words of Jesus Christ, give me more reason to believe that he is a sheep."

And you disagree here. Why, do you not agree that no one truly knows except God? Why, if you shared the gospel to somebody and he repented and believed, could you not take him/her to be a believer or a sheep and say "good to know to you brother/sister!", or would you rather say "we'll see if you truly are a brethren"? Why, if you see this somebody later on living a practical life of obedience and faithfulness to the words of Jesus Christ, would that not give you more reason to believe that he/she is a sheep? I could not understand how you disagree with my answer. Well,....

God knows everything from the beginning to the end. That is not what I disagree to. I disagree with believing that those who believe had no choice but to believe. And those who don't believe did not have a choice but to not believe. That would mean that God created some people for hell. Why create them at all?

Why would you disagree in something I said nothing about? So now I can understand your disagreement. It's not on anything I said but on what you only think I said but did not actually say. So, you actually are disagreeing not with me but with your thoughts.

Well...

Tong
R0082

 

[Grailhunter]

Why would you disagree in something I said nothing about? So now I can understand your disagreement. It's not on anything I said but on what you only think I said but did not actually say. So, you actually are disagreeing not with me but with your thoughts.

Well...

Tong
R0082

Tell them the truth.....
Tell them about the babies that are born damned!
Tell them about the murderers that are predestined by your god to murder.
Tell them about the mothers that are predestined by your god to give their babies up to abortions.
Tell them that Hitler was predestined to torture and kill the Jews in the halocaust.
Tell them that child molesters are predestined to molest their children. Tell them it was god that sent them to molest their children.
Tell them about the drug pushers that are predestined to be after their children.
Tell them that all their prayers, faith, love, grace, and good needs mean nothing, no credit to them. All is predestined under the control of the puppet master god....people living on strings.
Having children to turn them over to the puppet master god that if damned by him, their children have no mercy, no chance, no fairness, and no forgiveness.
[removed comment].

 

[Tong2020]

Great. You just have evaded everything else except the reminder.

So, can you now answer the questions in my post? Here they are.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

The verb foreknow is often understood as “to know, perceive, learn or understand beforehand, to take note of.” This word is used in Romans 8:29, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.”

But there is a another and much simpler option that is often overlooked in some modern theological circles :

Formerly Known (known before) = As in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him. Paul said, “The man who loves God is known by God” (1 Cor. 8:3).

God “had acquaintanceship” with the Israelites of the past. So, it was not “mere Divine pre-knowledge” of certain individuals, but a real intimate “pre-acquaintanceship.”

This makes it simple to understand that those God has a relationship with he decides to conform to his image. No relationship..no conforming. It's simple.

Yes, I acknowledge what you are saying about "foreknew". It's good you have knowledge of that. Not many do. But that could very well for another discussion.

Are you suggesting, by all that you said there, that there are those who simply have a relationship with God and there are those whom God foreknew? So that those whom God foreknew are those He predestined, but not those who simply have a relationship with Him?

Are you saying also that you are not one of those whom God foreknew so that you are not also among those whom God predestined?

Please have yourself be understood clearly as to what it is you are saying to avoid so many questions, unless you really do not like to be understood.

I simply would like to know if you believe you are one among those which the scriptures refer to as having been predestined to conform to the image of the Son as Paul had said in Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Are you or are you not?


Tong
R0083

 

[DNB]

What text? From what post?

The Biblical texts that support your claims.

 

[Tong2020]

You ignored all the verses I quoted.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Why did Jesus give the gospel to people you claim could not become his?
So that they might listen, so that they would become known by him ( which happens at thier moment of belief) so that they might follow him, and many did. You twist scripture into a pretzel.

You said "You ignored all the verses I quoted". I did not ignore all, except John 10:41-42. Why would I not? They are out of context. Perhaps, that is why you left out verse 39-40, even while you quoted verse 38.

39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. 40 And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptizing at first, and there He stayed. 41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke about this Man were true.” 42 And many believed in Him there.

It's seems even deceptive I would have to say, quoting verse 38, and leaving out verses 39-40, and went on to quote verses 41-42, and then seems to want to make it appear that the "many" in verse 42 are still them whom God had a conversation about the sheep in the previous verses. Well,...

You asked "Why did Jesus give the gospel to people you claim could not become his?". The question is not quite right, for I did not claim any of that. What I claim is that there is no "becoming a sheep". The sheep are already there. They are just lost and they are whom Jesus the Shepherd will find and bring home to the fold.

Tong
R0084

 

[marksman]

I see no difference between saying we are chosen according to his foreknowledge and saying we have free will to join the group called "elect." Because God knows we will believe, yes, but his knowledge doesn't cause our belief.

I don't think anyone is implying that it does. Because He is all-knowing, he can act accordingly. Like if I know my son is going to do something stupid, I can act accordingly to prevent it from happening.

 

[marksman]

Greetings marksman!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

I would just like to ask, considering what you said there, particularly those I had converted to bold fonts, for what is God's choosing for? Is it for salvation? If so, why would He do that? For what, when in His foreknowledge, they will come to faith in Jesus Christ? Do you not find that absurd?

Tong
R0067

God is choosing for sonship as the scripture says several times that we are sons of his.

 

[DNB]

I don't think anyone is implying that it does. Because He is all-knowing, he can act accordingly. Like if I know my son is going to do something stupid, I can act accordingly to prevent it from happening.

Yes, that's right. He knows us all better than we know ourselves. And thus, simply creates the environment and circumstances, that will bring out exactly the deepest secrets of our hearts. As you said, as much as a parent can anticipate their children's propensities and potential, although they cannot force or obligate them to act in any particular way, they can define or manipulate the situation that their in, in order to bring out the best in them.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Since the Father draws all men to Christ through the Gospel, those who fail to obey the Gospel are given to Christ. And while the Father is drawing all men, so is the Son and so is the Holy Spirit. There is ample Scripture to prove that. Let's take just one passage:

THE FATHER DRAWS ALL MEN THROUGH THE GOSPEL
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Only those who refuse to believe the Gospel are damned.

No....not possible. All men are not drawn to Jesus. Jesus tells us which ones are in view, look again;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Enoch...All the Father gives/ not one is lost can you see it now?
All the Father gives shall come/ not one is lost!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jesus also said, 'if your eye offends you, cut it off'. Do you subscribe to severing body parts in order to desist sin?
Jesus also said 'He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood...' .Do you accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?
Everyone knows what the Scripture says, it is the comprehension that is in question.

Yes...that is what seems to be escaping your grasp.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

We need to make sure we complete the passage to see the whole context

John 6:35–40 (NKJV): And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;
and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God gave them yes. Based on his will. That whoever sees and believes. There were some there who saw and did not believe

faith and lack of faith was what separates the two groups

No...looks like you twisted it a bit too much.

 

[DNB]

Yes...that is what seems to be escaping your grasp.

Wow, I know that this is going to sound stupid, but I honestly thought that you were going to offer a rebuttal with at least a slight semblance of insight. Although I would have expected it to be stubborn and biased, of course, but at least with an iota of an attempt at exegesis.
Hmmm, just when you thought that you had someone figured out...?

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Biblical texts that support your claims.

Show me a text that I misinterpreted and you know what it actually means, and teach us the truth.