Saved Or Predestined ???

[kcnalp]

Can anyone deny that God wills the salvation of all? Strangely.... yes!

Mt 7 Narrow is the way to Life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Mt 7 Narrow is the way to Life and FEW there be who find it.

yes

and why is it so few will find it..

 

[kcnalp]

yes

and why is it so few will find it..

Ask God/Jesus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ask God/Jesus.

So you do not think God let us know? And why would you even bring it up if it can not be known?

 

[Candidus]

@Preacher4Truth

Mark 10:13-16

Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. "Assuredly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

It is a great verse, yet looking at what it was in response to, I do not like what you are inferring:

In what way does an adult "receive the kingdom of God as a little child?" What was Jesus saying?

Jesus in no way was saying that "little children" were sin-free or fit for heaven by some merit of "natural innocence," for He makes it a condition of receiving the kingdom of God as a little child. If what Jesus is declaring is "sin-free innocence," then no adult can ever enter the kingdom of God! For the requirement/condition of receiving it would to be already "as" the little children He is speaking of.

Does the Bible actually teach that if you want to "receive" the kingdom of God or enter into it, that you have to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and be sinless and innocently pure as Adam before the Fall BEFORE you can come to Christ to receive it? Nonsense!

Or could Jesus be speaking of their childlike faith, trust and dependence as opposed to adults skepticism, arrogance and unbelief?

 

[Candidus]

Mt 7 Narrow is the way to Life and FEW there be who find it.

A complete fail; Matthew 7 does not say that God does not will the salvation of all, or that He limits His Atonement to just a few.

You can have your vivid imagination invent it, but you cannot find it in Scripture.

 

[kcnalp]

A complete fail; Matthew 7 does not say that God does not will the salvation of all, or that He limits His Atonement to just a few.

You can have your vivid imagination invent it, but you cannot find it in Scripture.

So you're saying I will be saved? Great! But who are all those who will burn in Hell fire "forever and ever"?

 

[DPMartin]

Hi

Are we chosen to be saved? Does God pre-select us according to his will?
Is salvation only for the elect?

I have faith, i believe, I've confessed and repented and accepted Christ as lord and saviour, but am i saved?

If not predestined and apart of his elect? Then all hope faith and trust in Christ is in vain, and comes to nothing.

Ephesians 4:5.
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Ephesians 11.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

are you born again, as in the Gospel according to John 3?

 

[Renniks]

Can anyone tell God what to do or how to make us? Nobody I ever knew of!

Nobody is claiming they can. Nice strawman.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why would Jesus die for them who are not His sheep? He is the Good Shepherd that is why He dies for His sheep. He would not die for the thieves and robbers, and for the wolves. Why would He?

My initial thinking regarding the scriptures you cited is that, they are misused or taken out of context. Perhaps too, it's because of a narrow understanding of what the life and death of Christ is about.

Tong
R0074

Think about what you just said

You just boasted that you were better than these people. So Christ died for you.

Remember, Christ died when we were his enemy, When WE were thieves robbers and wolves, Remember what Paul said to the corinthian church.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Christ died for the world. Because he loved the world..

No sir. I had not boasted of anything there. I just said that Jesus only died for His sheep and did not for the thieves and robbers and for the wolves. Obviously, that is figurative language sir, and said in the context of John 10. So, not that the sheep were better off than them, but that the sheep are Christ's and the others are not. So, if you think in the context of John 10, the thieves and robbers are enemies of the sheep. It is from them that the good Shepherd protects His sheep from. So, He would not die for them. Why would He?

Yes, Christ died while yet all else are sinners. For even the sheep are sinners ~they are lost. That is why, when the sheep enters the door, that is, Jesus, they are saved. And the sheep, entering the door, means that they had been found, and now under the care of the Good Shepherd, who said "28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."

Tong
R0087

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No sir. I had not boasted of anything there. I just said that Jesus only died for His sheep and did not for the thieves and robbers and for the wolves. Obviously, that is figurative language sir, and said in the context of John 10. So, not that the sheep were better off than them, but that the sheep are Christ's and the others are not. So, if you think in the context of John 10, the thieves and robbers are enemies of the sheep. It is from them that the good Shepherd protects His sheep from. So, He would not die for them. Why would He?

Yes, Christ died while yet all else are sinners. For even the sheep are sinners ~they are lost. That is why, when the sheep enters the door, that is, Jesus, they are saved. And the sheep, entering the door, means that they had been found, and now under the care of the Good Shepherd, who said "28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."

Tong
R0087

The sheep entered the door

That took faith

Many do not enter the door. Yet they were called..

because of unbelief or a lack of faith

The reason I said you boasted is because you seemed to say Jesus died for you, because you were not them.

 

[Candidus]

So you're saying I will be saved? Great! But who are all those who will burn in Hell fire "forever and ever"?

No, I'm saying that a hunting hound that only runs after its own tail instead of the fox, is about as profitable to follow as the person who can only argue in their own personal circle.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If Jesus Christ died for all mankind, then it can be said that He died for all those who will be cast into the lake of fire. And for what that He died for them? Nothing. His death accounts for nothing. Precious blood wasted, useless, worthless, and powerless, for them billions of wicked and sinful men.

That's silly. If I can pass out a cure for cancer and someone doesn't want it, should I force it on them? Does is mean I wasted my effort if I offer it to someone who refuses to take it? You might as well just admit you don't believe men have any ability to make choices, despite the Bible blaming man for his rebellion against God, you want to put it all on God. You might not see it that way, but that's exactly what your theology does. It makes God the sinner, because you deny that men can choose against His will.

You could pass a cure for cancer and if someone doesn't want it, of course you won't force it on him. But if one wanted to really save that someone, he would see to it , and in the case of man, at least will try his very best and do all that he can do, so that someone will be cured.

Well, you may have many analogies that you can think of, but those will fall short, if not, would not explain away that Jesus died for His sheep to save them and not for them who are not His sheep. It does not take away the truth that Jesus knows His sheep. His sheep are out there all over the earth and are lost. Them He will save. They are those whom His Father had given Him (John 10:29). Now there are those who wanted to devour the sheep or let's just generally call them here as the enemies of the sheep who wanted to kill them. It is from them that the good Shepherd (Jesus) protects His sheep from. So, He would not die for them. Why would He? Speaking of silly, tell me if Jesus' dying for them is silly to you or not.

You said "It makes God the sinner, because you deny that men can choose against His will." Perhaps, but I don't deny that men can choose against God's will. You are thinking beyond the words I've written in my post. I hope you don't do that with the words of God in scriptures.

Men can choose against the will God. In fact all had done that, that is why all are sinners. Let me share to you the testimony of God of man:

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I hope you are not surprised to know what God said there. Read the account of the Flood at Noah's time and you will find out what God had done to them, practically all of mankind, saved 8 whom God had freely given grace to spare and of course, for His purpose. There are a great lot of truth that one will know in there, about God, man, grace, sin, salvation. With all of that, I ask this simple question, when God killed them all, is that not forcing God's will to destroy them, on them whose will is to go on living? And have it not come to your mind that God could have done something else that they will come to repent from wickedness and live righteously, without forcing them? But He did not. Why? Obviously not because He can't, but because it is not His will and is not within His wisdom. A hard one to swallow? Well, hard as it may be, it's the truth.

I suggested that the parable of the wheat and the tares is a good read which somehow will shed light about what I have been telling you that there is no becoming a sheep. You will find the same truth with the wheat. Did you read it yet? I can tell you about it, if you like.

Tong
R0088

 

[Tong2020]

Calvinism teaches that God doesn't even know the future unless he ordains it.

If that is what Calvinism teach, then I don't agree with them.

My understanding is that what future that will happen that God knows is what He had planned, had preordained to happen, allowed and sustained as to happen according to the laws and decrees God had set out to govern all of that He will create.

Tong
R0089

 

[Enoch111]

So, not that the sheep were better off than them, but that the sheep are Christ's and the others are not.

You are concocting your own warped version of the Gospel. The real issue is "How does a person become a sheep of the Good Shepherd?", or more in keeping with Gospel truth, "How does a sinner become a child of God?" And the answer is found in John 1:12,13:

CHRIST MUST BE BELIEVED ON AND RECEIVED BY FAITH FIRST
But as many as received Him... even to them that believe on His name:

BELIEVERS THEN BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD
...to them gave He power to become the sons of God...

THIS IS BY THE SUPERNATURAL NEW BIRTH
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And just in case you mistakenly think that anyone is excluded, John the Baptist tells you that no one is excluded: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)

Even John Calvin could not dodge this declaration, and plainly agreed that "the world" the Baptizer was talking about was the whole world of humanity.

So when people continue to push their false beliefs in the face of plain Scripture, it means that they are WILFULLY BLIND. Kindly see my thread on that topic.

 

[Renniks]

I hope you are not surprised to know what God said there. Read the account of the Flood at Noah's time and you will find out what God had done to them, practically all of mankind, saved 8 whom God had freely given grace to spare and of course, for His purpose. There are a great lot of truth that one will know in there, about God, man, grace, sin, salvation. With all of that, I ask this simple question, when God killed them all, is that not forcing God's will to destroy them, on them whose will is to go on living? And have it not come to your mind that God could have done something else that they will come to repent from wickedness and live righteously, without forcing them? But He did not. Why? Obviously not because He can't, but because it is not His will and is not within His wisdom. A hard one to swallow? Well, hard as it may be, it's the truth.

No, that's an easy one. God says right there that he regretting making men.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

If there was something else God could have done, he would have done it. You must have a very limited view of God's grace to believe otherwise. And you don't understand your own theology. If God is just arbitrarily choosing some for salvation and some for damnation, why would his heart be troubled at their wickedness? In your system, he left them no other choice and only irresistibly save Noah and his family, so their wickedness was due to him giving them no other option but to be wicked.

 

[Renniks]

My understanding is that what future that will happen that God knows is what He had planned, had preordained to happen, allowed and sustained as to happen according to the laws and decrees God had set out to govern all of that He will create.

Even I can know what I'm going to do once I plan to do it. If God already ordained all that was to happen, seeing the future doesn't require omniscience.
If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil, which would not make him the God of scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

I just explained to you that Foreknew can mean "Those God knew in times past." That would be the Old Testament saints. It's not even about what God knows before creation or whenever. It's about those who God had a relationship with. The reason we are told about it is to show God was faithful to them, so he will be faithful to us. In that sense, I am known currently by God. If I break the relationship, I will no longer be known by God. It is similar to " Adam knew his wife." It's speaking of those who God had a personal relationship with, not some knowledge of the future. I see no reason to suppose God looks through the corridors of time to see the future or to pick people for salvation. As far as we know, time doesn't exist for God, which is something impossible for us to even fully understand. So, why would the Bible talk about God knowing something beforehand as if that were significant? It's nonsense. There is no such thing as time for God. God does however, know certain people intimately. He knows those who respond to his invitation to enter into a relationship. This isn't about fate. It isn't about God arbitrarily picking some and bypassing or damning others. It's about a loving God who desires that all come to know him, but does not force his will on humanity.

You don't have to repeat your explanation about the word "foreknew". As I had already told you in my previous post to you, I acknowledge such. By the way, on this subject, I have a question for you, do you have any scriptures to show where it says, directly or indirectly, that God's foreknowing is conditional or is initiated by man or depends on man? If so, please cite. If none, please inform. Thanks.

Okay, let me just guess since you don't want to give a direct answer (yes or no) before you even explain. That you are included in those that God "foreknew". And so, let us go to the other part. Paul said, whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. In consideration with what you had said there in your post, since you are currently in relation with God, then you are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. And if predestined, which means, predetermined or preordained, something that is fixed or set, to change no longer, it will certainly come to pass. Now, if you are currently foreknown, you also are predestined. Do you say that God's predestination of you now can be undone (if not mean differently), depending on you? So that, what God had fixed to happen concerning you, you can change and undo anytime you like, when you break relationship with God? That currently you are a child of God and is predestined, and if you break relationship with God and be a child of God no longer, that predestination will be undone or lose its meaning, and again if you go back in relationship with God and be a child of God again, that predestination will be effective again or will get its meaning back?

Tong
R0090

 

[Tong2020]

The invitation is that when we believe the promises of God in the gospel of Christ, we will be saved. Predestination is not pre-determination. We are chosen for salvation according to God's foreknowledge and not His fore-determination. He knows who is going to receive Christ as Saviour, and pre-destines those ones to be conformed to the image of Christ.

This means that believing the gospel and God's promises come first for salvation, and then the genuine convert to Christ realises that he was elected by God's foreknowledge from the foundation of the world.

This means that if you have believed the gospel and received Christ as your Saviour and Lord, then the promise of God is that you will be saved, and that because God knew from the foundation of the world that you would receive Christ, your name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

Greetings PaulC!

If you, without the intervention of God, would on your own receive Christ, which is the very thing that you say God saw you doing even from the foundation of the world, I ask a few simple questions:

What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you change your mind along the way and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you, that will not change, right? So, I hope you get the point of my question and tell me your answer.

On the matter of what you said that God knew from the foundation of the world that you would receive Christ, so that He predestined you to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Now, predestined means, predetermined or preordained, something that is fixed or set, to change no longer. You said "Predestination is not pre-determination." So, it seems you are suggesting that you are predestined only after you are converted or perhaps at conversion. Okay, I have a few simple questions, what is the purpose of God having to predestine you? Does it mean that God saw your future beyond the point of your believing that you will not conform yourself to the image of His Son so that there is need to predestine that upon you? And if so, then would that not mean that God tampered with the future, at least the future of all those whom He saw in their future will believe in Him? That He changed the future of them from the time in each of their lives when they believed in Him? Is that what you believe? If so, can that be found in scriptures?

Tong
R0091

 

[Paul Christensen]

So God didn't make all of us exactly as it pleased Him?

He made Adam and Eve perfect. But everything changed and mankind is no longer as it pleases God. What do you think the changes were?