Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

He set up the medicine, but did not make anyone take it. What good is love if it is forced? Is it true love? No.

CharismaticLady, I agreed with you when you said, concerning Israel, God did not fail. But the reason I agreed seems to be different than what you are saying there. It's opinion, I'm sorry to say, not scriptures. I can show you in scriptures why God did not fail concerning Israel. It is off topic. But if you are interested, please just say so. Either I start a new thread or we'll just have a conversation.

Choice is free will and against Calvinist doctrine. Irresistible grace is what Calvinists believe opposes free will. Are you a Calvinist? I thought you were until this question.

No I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian. It is Jesus Christ whom I follow and listen to. So, please take Calvin out of our exchanges. If my view happens to be in line with his view, that would just be coincidence and does not in any way mean that I am a Calvinist. Also, do not read into my post whatever it is you know about the beliefs of Calvin and hold me as though those were necessarily my beliefs.

Tong
R0062

 

[Tong2020]

How do you believe someone is a sheep?

No one truly knows except God.

We share or preach the gospel. If someone hears and ends up repenting unto God and have faith in Jesus Christ, I could consider him to be a sheep, for Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice". Now, Jesus also said of the sheep, "and they follow me". So, seeing him obeying and keeping the words of Jesus Christ, give me more reason to believe that he is a sheep.

Tong
R0063

 

[Paul Christensen]

I saw a very interesting take on the Scripture, 'My sheep hear My voice". It may not involve hearing a type of extra-Biblical voice speaking to us at all. When the context is examined it talks more of those whom the Father gives to Jesus for salvation, that those whom the Father knows will receive Christ as Saviour will hear the voice of Jesus through the preaching of the gospel, and they will be drawn to, and come to Christ. That is in keeping with Hebrews where it says that "when you hear God's voice, don't harden your hearts". I believe that this is God's voice speaking through the gospel, and those who hear it are encouraged not to harden their hearts against it.

 

[Tong2020]

I don't understand why you think these verses support limited atonement. They don't even imply it.
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate;

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

This precedes the verses you are so fond of. "whoever" can become a sheep.

What is so hard to grasp about that? Jesus speaks of what he does for his own and his own are those who enter through him.

As I said, there is no such thing as becoming a sheep. There is not a single verse in John 10 that speaks of such.

John 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Nothing in verses 1-6 that speaks of becoming a sheep. What we have there is that the sheep is already spoken about in the passage.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Also, nothing in verse 7-10 that speaks of becoming a sheep. What we have there is the sheep still is spoken about in the passage.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Also, nothing in verse 11-13 that speaks of becoming a sheep. What we have until this passage is still the sheep spoken about, but nothing about it as formerly not a sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Also, nothing in verse 14-16 that speaks of becoming a sheep. Still the sheep spoken about, and not a slightest hint of it as formerly being not a sheep.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Also, nothing in verse 26-29 that speaks of becoming a sheep. Still the sheep spoken about, and not a slightest hint of it as formerly being not a sheep.

You said "I don't understand why you think these verses support limited atonement. They don't even imply it." Well, I don't know about limited atonement. But this is what I see in the passage, that Jesus Christ lays down His life specifically for His sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Verse 15 is plain and clear, Jesus lay down His life for the sheep and not for any other else.

Tong
R0064

 

[marksman]

Wow, ...sorry to digress, but that car crash story, if it's exactly as you say, is utterly incredible, miraculous.
BTW, infinitesimal means extremely small, I don't think that that was what you meant?

One. Yes, it was. I definitely thought my time was up.
Two. Yes wrong spelling. Better use infinite I think.

 

[marksman]

I really don't care how many times you spout your theories. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are still operational. I have all of the gifts in Joel 2, Mark 16, and all but two in 1 Corinthians 11. I can't help if you don't and therefore can't believe.

The gifts are the way 100% of my prayers are answered. And all of the visions I've had have come to pass. That is proof that the Word of God is for us today and true.

When do you sleep? I suppose Jack has approved of all this?

 

[marksman]

The invitation is that when we believe the promises of God in the gospel of Christ, we will be saved. Predestination is not pre-determination. We are chosen for salvation according to God's foreknowledge and not His fore-determination. He knows who is going to receive Christ as Saviour, and pre-destines those ones to be conformed to the image of Christ.

.

The invitation is that when we believe the promises of God in the gospel of Christ, we will be saved. Predestination is not pre-determination. We are chosen for salvation according to God's foreknowledge and not His fore-determination. He knows who is going to receive Christ as Saviour, and pre-destines those ones to be conformed to the image of Christ.

That sounds about right according to my experience. I wasn't the only one in the meeting when I was saved but not everyone was saved although they heard the same message as me.

 

[Tong2020]

If no rescue is available, I am destined to die. If there's only one option, then why would God blame us for choosing that option? That's absurd.

You have that problem because you begin with the wrong foot.

Here's the situation. Man sinned, making himself a slave of sin and hellbound.
God is under no obligation to save man.

Are you alright with that or do you deny any of that?

Now God saves not all of man. Is God unrighteous by that? My answer is no. How about you?

God had chosen a people among the peoples of the earth, to be His people, that is Israel. Is God unrighteous by that? My answer is no. How about you?

To the people whom He had not chosen, was God unjust or not fair by not choosing them? My answer is No. How about you?

What happens to the people that God did not choose to be His people? They will be going to hell because of their sin. Can they blame God for not choosing them? My answer is no. How about you?

Tong
R0065

 

[Tong2020]

Not if he falls away into false teaching and becomes reprobate.
Is any Christian perfectly like Jesus in this life? Of course not.
Even this predestination is conditional on our listening and following.

You really know how to weaken God and make the man powerful by your free will, this time as to have power to break even what God has predestined.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

A reminder: God is the Potter, man is the clay. God is the Creator, man is the created.

Tong
R0066

 

[Tong2020]

The way I understand this and it may not be right is that because he knows everything from the beginning to the end he knows who will respond to his offer of salvation, so in that sense, he does choose people according to His foreknowledge. That ties up with the verse that says he chose us before the foundation of the world which is before Genesis 1;1.

Greetings marksman!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

I would just like to ask, considering what you said there, particularly those I had converted to bold fonts, for what is God's choosing for? Is it for salvation? If so, why would He do that? For what, when in His foreknowledge, they will come to faith in Jesus Christ? Do you not find that absurd?

Tong
R0067

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Let me show you why I suggested a re-reading.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"He also" does not at all mean that predestination there was based on God's foreknowledge. Rather what the verse is saying is that, God did not only foreknow the Christian, but also predestined him to be conformed to the image of His Son. Very different sense and meaning from what you say and I quote, "We are predestined based on Gods foreknowledge."

Tong
R0054

Whom he foreknew...

this shows predestination can not be separated from foreknowledge

god did not just randomly pick and chose

 

[Candidus]

It's a mistake to take the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" to be a condition of God's election. That would be forcing the verse to mean something it does not say. The said phrase is a modifier of the salvation for which the election was for. It is "salvation" that the phrase is a modifier of and not the election or choosing.
Tong
R0033

Hardly a mistake... the Bible speaks of "predestination" to holiness, or Christ-likeness, (Rom. 8:29,30) it makes natural reasoning to see that here, the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" is referring to what has already been said and established as predestined in Scripture.

 

[Candidus]

Whom he foreknew...

this shows predestination can not be separated from foreknowledge

god did not just randomly pick and chose

Knowledge is merely knowledge... not causation.

 

[Candidus]

You really know how to weaken God and make the man powerful by your free will, this time as to have power to break even what God has predestined.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

A reminder: God is the Potter, man is the clay. God is the Creator, man is the created.

Tong
R0066

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God?

I'm not Renniks, but I will answer my view.

My "considering" or "believing" does not make anything to be a reality. The Church, the Body, the Bride of Christ is foreknown. When Jesus returns, he is coming for His Bride, not Bride(s) (plural). The destiny of the Bride is sure, yet my participation in that Body is not. The Church was still the Bride before I was ever born, and it existed long before I ever came to be incorporated into it. It would still be the Bride, the Church, if I never participated in it.


If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

Look at the focus of Romans-Revelation, it constantly prods Believers onto holiness. If we are never to become so, why would God predestinate something that He will not do in the Believer?

As a believer, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

A reminder: God is the Potter, man is the clay. God is the Creator, man is the created. ​

And some men are born princes, and others born paupers. Some are born into Jewish families and raised as people of God, and some are born and raised as heathens. Some are born vessels to honorable use, and others for common use. No one gets to choose their lot in life at birth. The Heathens are vessels fitted for destruction, "for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they are appointed." (1 Peter 2:8). Note that their appointed doom is from their disobedience to something they knew, the word. They are not caused to "stumble" by fate, and their doom is conditioned upon their disobedience to the word and not a mere predestination to Hell before they were born. One can be predestined to Hell if they continue in their course of unbelief, and one can be predestinated to Heaven if their course remains one of faith.

Paul also writes, "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (the Jews, vessels of honor). May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles (vessels of common use), to make them jealous.

"But what if some of the branches (Jews, born vessels of honor) were broken off, and you, (Vessel of common use, obedient to the word), being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree...." Rom. 11:17).

Being born as a Jew does not predestinate salvation/ being born a heathen does not predestinate damnation. The point of Romans 9 is not predestination of the individual, but, "That is, it is not the children of the flesh (Birthed vessels of honor) who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." (Rom. 9:8). Being born and raised as a Jew, one of "God's chosen people" did not guarantee their sense of "eternal security" and sure predestination. Being born of heathen stock is a disadvantage, but God has opened the door to their salvation.​

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Why don't you simply believe what God says?
1. The Father draws men to the Savior
2. The Son draws men to the Savior
3. The Holy Spirit draws men to the Savior
If all would repent, all would be saved.

And God Himself tells you to seek Him. So you are in opposition to God.

ISAIAH 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nationsthat knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Therefore if no one can seek Him why would God ask for the impossible?

Hello Enoch,
I do believe exactly what scripture says;

1] jn6:44...No man CAN come to me,UNLESSThe Father which sent me draws him.
2] The Son seeks and saves that which is lost...lk19
3] yes, if all men would repent they would be saved...but they do not repent of sin because men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.

Men are commanded to repent and believe. If and when they do it is evidence they were given by the Father to the Son...jn6:37

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Romans3 says no one seeks God ,no, not one.aquote from psalm14:1-3

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Please Anthony, tell me that you see the circular reasoning?

My friend, Jesus said a Man must be born again to see the Kingdom of heaven in jn3.
If I read his words out loud, and a person disagrees with me, who are they really disagreeing with?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yep I believe her testimony, go read the book.

There's no rule that I have to agree with everything others have to say on here.

Babies are innocent, they are too young to know the differences between right and wrong, they are too young to make a decision. God is a graceful, merciful God and loving God, I am not questioning it, it is beyond human understanding of how great our God is, how great Jesus's love and grace is.

And God can use multiple ways to speak to human beings, and show them great things, I am not putting any limits on God's power either.

Babies are conceived in sin,and are guilty in Adam.rom3:23

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Knowledge is merely knowledge... not causation.

It does not counter that fact that god knew each person before time

it was not some random thing. He chose based on his will. And his will was that whoever has faith has eternal
Life

take this knowledge (knowing who will
Have faith has eternal life) and predetermining that based on that faith they will be saved is predestination 101

 

[Josho]

Babies are conceived in sin,and are guilty in Adam.rom3:23