Saved Or Predestined ???

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Enoch111

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By the way, on this subject, I have a question for you, do you have any scriptures to show where it says, directly or indirectly, that God's foreknowing is conditional or is initiated by man or depends on man?
Since God is the omniscient Creator, and man is simply the creature, God observes men (and human affairs) and sees the end from the beginning. Therefore His divine foreknowledge is not determined by men. That is a part of His divine nature.

ISAIAH 40
13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being His counsellor hath taught Him?
14 With whom took He counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of judgment, and taught Him knowledge, and shewed to Him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, He taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon
is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before Him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
 

Paul Christensen

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Greetings PaulC!

If you, without the intervention of God, would on your own receive Christ, which is the very thing that you say God saw you doing even from the foundation of the world, I ask a few simple questions:

What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you had not actually changed your mind and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you, that will not change, right? So, I hope you get the point of my question and tell me your answer.

On the matter of what you said that God knew from the foundation of the world that you would receive Christ, so that He predestined you to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Now, predestined means, predetermined or preordained, something that is fixed or set, to change no longer. You said "Predestination is not pre-determination." So, it seems you are suggesting that you are predestined only after you are converted or perhaps at conversion. Okay, I have a few simple questions, what is the purpose of God having to predestine you? Does it mean that God saw your future beyond the point of your believing that you will not conform yourself to the image of His Son so that there is need to predestine that upon you? And if so, then would that not mean that God tampered with the future, at least the future of all those whom He saw in their future will believe in Him? That He changed the future of them from the time in each of their lives when they believed in Him? Is that what you believe? If so, can that be found in scriptures?

Tong
R0091
Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

God has foreknowledge because He exists out of time.
He gave man free will
He knows what man is going to do - whether to receive Christ or not.
He doesn't influence their choice even though He knows what it is going to be.
He elects those whom He knows are going to receive Christ.
Once they receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord, He then predetermines that they be conformed to the image of Christ.

Fairly simple, really.
 

Tong2020

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Did any of the people to who Jesus said "You are not my sheep.", which would be all the people he was talking to at that time, later become saved? If even one did, your whole theory is proven wrong. We know that Jesus was talking to the Jews and many of them did become converted at Pentecost. Jesus was evangelizing. Try reading John 10 in that context instead of imposing your fatalism on it.
Fatalism is in your own imagination that clouds your hearing, vision, and thinking in this exchange. And why you try to bring it up every now and them gives me the impression that you are losing ground and use it as something to step on. There is nothing in what I said is fatalism nor am I a fatalist. If you would be just fair in our exchanges, we need not have to say such comment. They don't have anything to do with our conversation which is simply about your view and mine. If you refer to fatalism, Calvinism, and any "ism", you'll be losing me because I really do not know those "isms" are. I did not care to study them, for I see no real need, in my study of God's words.

For clarification, when I said "The sheep are already there.", I meant to say that, all over John 10, the identity and person of the sheep is there as a given in all that Jesus said about them, for there never was even a small hint that they were not or were something else until they had done something and became a sheep.

You a asked "Did any of the people to who Jesus said "You are not my sheep.", which would be all the people he was talking to at that time, later become saved?" As far as the truth concerning that is concerned, here's what scriptures said of them and which is what I believe and know:

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
They do not believe Him.
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
They wanted to stone Him.
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.
They falsely accuse Him of blasphemy. They wanted to stone Him to death.
John 10:39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
They only not desire to kill him but apparently had committed themselves to kill Him.

Based on the above, it gives me enough grounds to conclude that it is reasonable to believe that none of them would later on believe. Whether some of them were converted, scriptures does not tell. Now, it's wrong to believe something, as to be the absolute truth, that scriptures does not teach or say anything about, and only our conclusion.

Now one more point, the sheep, when the gospel is preached to them, it does not mean that they automatically and instantly believe. Some might at the instant time of preaching, but not the same for all the sheep.


Tong
R0092

 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Choosing for sonship, you say. Is that the same as choosing for salvation, as scriptures speaks about of the brethren in the church at Thessalonica?
Can't have salvation unless you are a son.

Actually, being a son is a definite statement of having been saved.

I asked the question to be sure that I am not reading you wrongly. That is clear now. So when you said "God is choosing for sonship..." you actually are saying that God had chosen people "FOR SALVATION".

Now that is clear, how do you answer the question:

Why would God choose people FOR SALVATION?

For what, when in His foreknowledge, they will come to faith in Jesus Christ? What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you change your mind along the way and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you will not change, right?

Tong
R0093
 
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Preacher4Truth

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@Preacher4Truth

Mark 10:13-16

Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. "Assuredly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

:D
All you're doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture, missing 2 Timothy 2:15 altogether mate. That passage doesn't negate the truths of Romans 3 of which you made a mocking gif in response.

Did Jesus mean children are sinless by his teaching, contradicting the other Scriptures which clearly teach otherwise?

Not even close.
 

Josho

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All you're doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture, missing 2 Timothy 2:15 altogether mate. That passage doesn't negate the truths of Romans 3 of which you made a mocking gif in response.

Did Jesus mean children are sinless by his teaching, contradicting the other Scriptures which clearly teach otherwise?

Not even close.

So where do infants go since they do not know the difference between right and wrong?
 

Preacher4Truth

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So where do infants go since they do not know the difference between right and wrong?
First thing you need to do is accept all are born in sin, guilty in Adam. If you're willing to accept all in Christ are saved, you need to accept all in Adam are lost. Both truths are in Romans.

Start there.
 
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Josho

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All you're doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture, missing 2 Timothy 2:15 altogether mate. That passage doesn't negate the truths of Romans 3 of which you made a mocking gif in response.

Did Jesus mean children are sinless by his teaching, contradicting the other Scriptures which clearly teach otherwise?

Not even close.

@Candidus

It does also suggest an extra message though, that little kids, perhaps up to a certain age, not knowing what that age is, enter the Kingdom of Heaven but I would definitely say infants enter Heaven.
 

Josho

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Ah here you go in the

Luke 18:15-16
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God"
 

Preacher4Truth

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Ah here you go in the

Luke 18:15-16
Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God"
You've failed to address the fact you pit Scripture against Scripture, a failure to adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15, and have failed to embrace all who are in Adam are guilty, all in Christ are saved, Romans 3 &c.

Start there my friend.
 

DNB

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You accuse without evidence. It all started with your mocking of the lady who saw heaven and the babies. So I told you I also have visions, just to show you that it is normal for a Spirit filled Christian to have abilities. And your mocking increased. You say you don't question the gift, just those who claim to have it. And I say if you had the gift, you wouldn't be so quick to question and disparage without any evidence of lying, those who have it. I don't lie - ever - even if it costs me. That would be sin, and I enjoy my relationship with God too much to ever want to displease Him.
We question the wisdom, and thus, the grounds as to why God would reveal such an insight. Therefore I don't believe the lady saw heaven, with or without babies. This is very classified information, God has reserved it for certain special people. As Paul said, '...not permitted to speak...'. (2 Corinthians 12:4)
 

CharismaticLady

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We question the wisdom, and thus, the grounds as to why God would reveal such an insight. Therefore I don't believe the lady saw heaven, with or without babies. This is very classified information, God has reserved it for certain special people. As Paul said, '...not permitted to speak...'. (2 Corinthians 12:4)

Not permitted to speak could also mean beyond description. But many people are seeing heaven these days. We are so close to the end you have no idea. The Tribulation could start in just two years, with the Asteroid hitting the earth in April of 2029.
 

DNB

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Not permitted to speak could also mean beyond description. But many people are seeing heaven these days. We are so close to the end you have no idea. The Tribulation could start in just two years, with the Asteroid hitting the earth in April of 2029.
This is my point, you have read the promises of the Spirit, which we all accept, but now you have gone off abusing it. No one knows the end times, except for apparently you.
 

CharismaticLady

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This is my point, you have read the promises of the Spirit, which we all accept, but now you have gone off abusing it. No one knows the end times, except for apparently you.

Do you even know the warnings in the Bible of what we can expect? We may not know the day nor the hour, but we sure know the season and year.
 

DNB

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Do you even know the warnings in the Bible of what we can expect? We may not know the day nor the hour, but we sure know the season and year.
I don't recall an asteroid coming in 2029 as being one of the signs, or dates stipulated.
 

CharismaticLady

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I don't recall an asteroid coming in 2029 as being one of the signs, or dates stipulated.

Check out Revelation 8:8-9
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

I've know that was an asteroid for decades.
 

Josho

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You've failed to address the fact you pit Scripture against Scripture, a failure to adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15, and have failed to embrace all who are in Adam are guilty, all in Christ are saved, Romans 3 &c.

Start there my friend.

@Candidus @Anthony D'Arienzo

I did not say they were without sin. But they have no knowledge between good and evil.

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Now the promised land in Deuteronomy 1 was a land on this earth, but there is also another promised land, the other promised land is Heaven, and God wishes for us to enter it.

A lot of the OT even though literal is also symbolic of the NT and the time to come.
 

DNB

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Check out Revelation 8:8-9
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

I've know that was an asteroid for decades.
There you have it, all the evidence right before us. An angel sounds a trumpet, an asteroid hits the earth, and all this in 2029.
This was the seventh seal, what about all that occurred before it?
You have an absolutely wild imagination.
 

CharismaticLady

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There you have it, all the evidence right before us. An angel sounds a trumpet, an asteroid hits the earth, and all this in 2029.
This was the seventh seal, what about all that occurred before it?
You have an absolutely wild imagination.

What do think will happen to the earth when an asteroid hits the earth at the California/Mexico boarder, half in and half out of the ocean? All of the islands in the Pacific will be obliterated by the tide wave. All the volcanoes including Yellowstone will erupt. You can sleep through it you think you can...

We will be able to see it for two full years before it hits. Men will be running scared. That's in Revelation too.

As for the seals before it, the first seal is the revealing of the Antichrist which ushers in the Great Tribulation. That is probably 7 years before the Asteroid. If you believe in a pre-trib rapture, prepare to be disappointed when you're still here.

Actually read Revelation 8:7-13

First Trumpet: Vegetation Struck
7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Second Trumpet: The Seas Struck
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Third Trumpet: The Waters Struck
10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.

Fourth Trumpet: The Heavens Struck
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

13 And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit
9 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

12 One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

Sixth Trumpet: The Angels from the Euphrates
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 
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