Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, not that the sheep were better off than them, but that the sheep are Christ's and the others are not.

You are concocting your own warped version of the Gospel. The real issue is "How does a person become a sheep of the Good Shepherd?", or more in keeping with Gospel truth, "How does a sinner become a child of God?" And the answer is found in John 1:12,13:

CHRIST MUST BE BELIEVED ON AND RECEIVED BY FAITH FIRST
But as many as received Him... even to them that believe on His name:

BELIEVERS THEN BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD
...to them gave He power to become the sons of God...

THIS IS BY THE SUPERNATURAL NEW BIRTH
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And just in case you mistakenly think that anyone is excluded, John the Baptist tells you that no one is excluded: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)

Even John Calvin could not dodge this declaration, and plainly agreed that "the world" the Baptizer was talking about was the whole world of humanity.

So when people continue to push their false beliefs in the face of plain Scripture, it means that they are WILFULLY BLIND. Kindly see my thread on that topic.

Are you by that wanting to abandon the discussion regarding the sheep in John 10? Just say so. But if you are saying that I am concocting my own warped version of the Gospel as a rebuttal to my post, then anybody would agree with me that that isn't a proper rebuttal and in fact isn't a rebuttal at all.

You said "The real issue is "How does a person become a sheep of the Good Shepherd?". As I said and had explained several times over, so I will not repeat myself here, there is no such thing as "becoming a sheep". What is there in scriptures is the seeking of the lost sheep and bringing them home, to be one flock with one shepherd.

You asked "How does a sinner become a child of God?". You said "the answer is found in John 1:12,13.

What we have in John 1:12,13 I'd say does not answer the out of context question "How does a sinner become a child of God?". Rather it answers the question, "Who are they who received the Word whom John had just spoken about in verses 1-10, when He came to the world?" And the answer is in verse 12 & 13, them who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It is them who believe in His name, them whom God had given the right to become children of God. They are those who are referred to, elsewhere in scriptures, who are "born of God", or "born of the Spirit". They are therefore those whom God had created anew in Christ. This other scriptural figure of the born again or the new birth, like the figure of the sheep, shows the matter of salvation as ultimately all God's work and doing. That the sheep is found and brought home to safety is all of God. That the sinner is created anew in Christ Jesus, as being born again, who will be conformed by God to the image of the heavenly man, the other Adam, as will be given a heavenly body as that of the heavenly man, Jesus Christ, is all of God as well. So, what you read in scriptures about repentance, faith or believing, sanctification, obedience, etc. are all but the things involve in the working of God's salvation.

With regards the part "which taketh away the sin of the world." in Jn 1:29, that would be for another topic altogether. So I will refrain to discuss it here. Perhaps you can start a new thread and we can discuss it there. Notice, "sin" there is singular.

Tong
R0098

 

[Enoch111]

So where do infants go since they do not know the difference between right and wrong?

They go to be with Christ, since He died for them. David expected to see his son who died (because of David), and David went to be with Christ (as did all the OT saints).

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (2 Sam 12:23)

And what shall I more say [regarding the OT saints]? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets (Heb 11:32)

Only those who are perfectly capable of hearing and understanding the Gospel are held accountable for responding to the Gospel (Mk 16:16,17). Infants and young children are unable to do so, and therefore God's grace is more than sufficient.

 

[Enoch111]

As I said and had explained several times over, so I will not repeat myself here, there is no such thing as "becoming a sheep".

This remark shows how little you really understand of the Gospel, of regeneration, and how sinners become children of God. "Sheep" is simply a metaphor for those who are saved (just like wheat, or good fish). But God regards Christ as the Good Shepherd and all God's children as His sheep.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Josho]

Oh well I think I have had my say on this thread, nothing much more to add, I just feel sorry for the OP, with all the mixed messages in this thread.

@Pianoworldstage I believe you are saved, by just reading your original post, don't let anybody else tell you otherwise.

Ephesians 2:8‭
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God"

Praise The Lord.

 

[Tong2020]

No, that's an easy one. God says right there that he regretting making men.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

If there was something else God could have done, he would have done it. You must have a very limited view of God's grace to believe otherwise. And you don't understand your own theology. If God is just arbitrarily choosing some for salvation and some for damnation, why would his heart be troubled at their wickedness? In your system, he left them no other choice and only irresistibly save Noah and his family, so their wickedness was due to him giving them no other option but to be wicked.

It seems that we have a different understanding of the scriptures which said "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.". The Christians know very well that God makes no mistake. That attribute of God, by itself is telling the reader that it is not what it sounds like. Unless, you believe that God does make mistakes that he could repent and regret. If that were the case, there is not a day that pass by that God does not regret having created man.

You said "If there was something else God could have done, he would have done it." Then you said "You must have a very limited view of God's grace to believe otherwise." To the contrary, by what you said there, it is you who is suggesting that God could not do anything else but kill them. You are actually suggesting that God could not give them grace as He gave to the family of Noah. Are you not by that the one who have a very limited view of God's grace? Of course God can do that. But He did not. Not that He could not do that, but that, as I said, doing otherwise than what He had actually done, is contrary to His will and is not within His wisdom.

You said "If God is just arbitrarily choosing some for salvation and some for damnation, why would his heart be troubled at their wickedness?" Who told you that God is just arbitrarily choosing some for salvation and some for damnation? For sure, not me. Is that now a straw man starting to be created and mixed in this exchange?

You said "In your system, he left them no other choice and only irresistibly save Noah and his family, so their wickedness was due to him giving them no other option but to be wicked.". No, in scriptures, God, from Adam, put them outside the garden of Eden, had them multiplied, until the generation of Noah. Until God said "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.".

That is the preordained plan of the Sovereign God Renniks. Do you believe that? Do you accept Him?

Tong
R0099

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Candidus]

Jeremiah 26:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lord’s favor? And the Lord relented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”

The (S)overeign God went against His (S)overiegn decree! Strange! Did God in His Foreknowledge know that He was going to be fickle?

 

[Candidus]

Hebrews 3:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

"while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

If God is the Cause of all things through Foreknowledge, how could anyone do anything other than what was Predestined? Really... why would God say that we had a choice?

 

[Candidus]

Genesis 22:12 King James Version (KJV)

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

God implies that he did not know before Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac if Abraham feared Him. Odd that God did not know! Or did God know and He lied?

 

[Candidus]

Acts 7:51 New King James Version (NKJV)

“You stiff-necked[a] and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

If God Foreordained them to be stiff-necked.... why is He surprised that the resist the Holt Spirit? Is one Person of the Trinity working to save those that the father has Predestined to damnation? How can you resist Predestination?

 

[Candidus]

2 Chronicles 32:31 King James Version (KJV)

"Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart."

Why would God bother to try anybody when He has determined what their response will be, or in His Foreknowledge already knows the result? God said that He must "try him, that he might know all that was in his heart."

 

[Candidus]

Why Pray and ask for anything?

If everything is already predetermined, then what will happen will happen. It would be a waste of time to pray.

 

[Candidus]

Deuteronomy 8:2 King James Version (KJV)

"And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no."

My, my! The Sovereign God who decrees all things and Foreknows all things did not know the hearts of the Israelites in the wilderness!

 

[Candidus]

Jeremiah 26:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

“Thus says the Lord: ‘Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."

Tell me again how God has Foreordained that everyone is either wheat or a tare, a Sheep or not a Sheep and it cannot be changed! How Foreknowledge has already Predestined everyone to heaven or Hell! Such certainty! "Perhaps..." that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."

 

[Candidus]

Luke 13:34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

Man thwarts the Sovereign will of God again! Doh! Why would God will something and long for something that He has already willed and determined would not happen?

 

[marksman]

Actually, being a son is a definite statement of having been saved.

I asked the question to be sure that I am not reading you wrongly. That is clear now. So when you said "God is choosing for sonship..." you actually are saying that God had chosen people "FOR SALVATION".

Now that is clear, how do you answer the question:

Why would God choose people FOR SALVATION?

For what, when in His foreknowledge, they will come to faith in Jesus Christ? What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you change your mind along the way and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you will not change, right?

Tong
R0093

Why would God choose people FOR SALVATION? You will have to ask God that.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My understanding is that what future that will happen that God knows is what He had planned, had preordained to happen, allowed and sustained as to happen according to the laws and decrees God had set out to govern all of that He will create.

Even I can know what I'm going to do once I plan to do it. If God already ordained all that was to happen, seeing the future doesn't require omniscience.
If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil, which would not make him the God of scripture.

There can be no other scenario Renniks, except that all that ever happens and come to pass, are what God had in His plan, had preordained to happen, allowed and sustained as to happen according to the laws and decrees that He had set out to govern all of that He will create. For there is none that is outside of God before creation. There could be none that could exist and happen if not what is within what was created by Him and ordained by Him to happen or allowed to happen. There is no random event that happens outside of what God had made. And as it is God who sustains and holds all creation together as to exist as they exist from the time they were created, existing within the ordained and designed processes of change they are ordained and allowed to go through time during their existence, all living and moving in accordance to and within their given boundaries and freedom, without contradiction and conflict with one another, God must inevitably be in control of them all, else we could not even imagine what will be the result of that and how that will be.

You said "Even I can know what I'm going to do once I plan to do it." Do you? You only think you do or had convinced yourself that you do. For only God can, for only God is omniscient and the absolute yes and no and is immutable.

You said "If God already ordained all that was to happen, seeing the future doesn't require omniscience." Seeing the future does not require omniscience because seeing the future is an aspect of God's omniscience as seeing the past is an aspect of His omniscience as well.

You said "If God decrees everything, that makes him the author of evil, which would not make him the God of scripture." I have to admit, this is truly a very very difficult subject for us humans in that this is not even about the already very difficult and complicated subject of origins or beginnings, but is about the subject of that which is without origin or beginning nor end ~ God, the infinite, the perfect, the eternal, the spiritual, the sovereign, the holy, the good, the infallible, the omniscient, the omnipotent, the omnipresent, the immutable, the creator, etc. As a comment on that very delicate and complex subject, here's one that God had decreed involving man, Israel in particular, and what Paul have to say about that:

Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Is that evil? So, even before we can really start talking about your statement there, this simple question must first be answered. Also, is that included in the "evil" in your statement?

Tong
R0100

 

[Grailhunter]

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! How about this picture

 

[Tong2020]

↑
Greetings PaulC!

If you, without the intervention of God, would on your own receive Christ, which is the very thing that you say God saw you doing even from the foundation of the world, I ask a few simple questions:

What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you had not actually changed your mind and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you, that will not change, right? So, I hope you get the point of my question and tell me your answer.

On the matter of what you said that God knew from the foundation of the world that you would receive Christ, so that He predestined you to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Now, predestined means, predetermined or preordained, something that is fixed or set, to change no longer. You said "Predestination is not pre-determination." So, it seems you are suggesting that you are predestined only after you are converted or perhaps at conversion. Okay, I have a few simple questions, what is the purpose of God having to predestine you? Does it mean that God saw your future beyond the point of your believing that you will not conform yourself to the image of His Son so that there is need to predestine that upon you? And if so, then would that not mean that God tampered with the future, at least the future of all those whom He saw in their future will believe in Him? That He changed the future of them from the time in each of their lives when they believed in Him? Is that what you believe? If so, can that be found in scriptures?

Tong
R0091

Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

God has foreknowledge because He exists out of time.
He gave man free will
He knows what man is going to do - whether to receive Christ or not.
He doesn't influence their choice even though He knows what it is going to be.
He elects those whom He knows are going to receive Christ.
Once they receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord, He then predetermines that they be conformed to the image of Christ.

Fairly simple, really.

The question:

What is the point of God choosing you for salvation, when your believing Him is certain to happen even without His intervention? Is God afraid that it will come to pass that you had not actually changed your mind and so not believe? Of course not, right? What future God had seen concerning you, that will not change, right? So, I hope you get the point of my question and tell me your answer.

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

what is the purpose of God having to predestine you?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

Does it mean that God saw your future beyond the point of your believing that you will not conform yourself to the image of His Son so that there is need to predestine that upon you?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

And if so, then would that not mean that God tampered with the future, at least the future of all those whom He saw in their future will believe in Him?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

The question:

That He changed the future of them from the time in each of their lives when they believed in Him? Is that what you believe? If so, can that be found in scriptures?

Answer: Well, if we could work all that out to our satisfaction, He wouldn't be God, would He?

Now let me go to what you said.

You said "God has foreknowledge because He exists out of time.". Agreed. And God had foreknowledge because He is the omniscient God.

You said "He gave man free will". Yes He did.

You said "He knows what man is going to do - whether to receive Christ or not." Yes He does, for besides being their creator, He is omniscient.

You said "He doesn't influence their choice even though He knows what it is going to be.". Fairly simple, really, please cite scriptures.

You said "He elects those whom He knows are going to receive Christ." Fairly simple, really, please cite scriptures.

You said "Once they receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord, He then predetermines that they be conformed to the image of Christ.". Fairly simple, really, please cite scriptures.

Tong
R0101