The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[CharismaticLady]

3. Legalism - Salvation starts with repenting

That is Scriptural. Acts of the Apostles 2:38. It is why John the Baptist had to come first preaching repentance to make the way straight for the Lord. Humbling yourself is not legalism, it is a broken and contrite heart.

Labeling what God requires as legalism shows no fear of the Lord. Beware! You may be in a false sense of security with your unscriptural beliefs as the title of this OP implies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've been on forums for years, and never has anyone said grace must be earned. But I do agree that grace is a gift of the power of God to strengthen you where you are weak. This is why God's grace was sufficient in Paul's weakness in dealing with the discouragement of false teachers.

I agree, I never seen any way literally say grace must be earned

But many preach it, then deny it.

Grace is not a power. It is a reason.

The reason gives us power

(ie, paul could consider severe pain and suffering a momentary light affliction based on the result of grace in his salvation, because he understood, this lifetime compared to eternity is short. And since his eternity is assured and gauranteed. No amount of pain on this earth is to heavy A buden to bare)

The power comes from God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is Scriptural. Acts of the Apostles 2:38. It is why John the Baptist had to come first preaching repentance to make the way straight for the Lord. Humbling yourself is not legalism, it is a broken and contrite heart.

Labeling what God requires as legalism shows no fear of the Lord. Beware! You may be in a false sense of security with your unscriptural beliefs as the title of this OP implies.

Yes it is,, If you look at number 2. They (we) also started with repenting

Both also started with repenting and prayer. It is after this event that they went separate ways

I labeled number three as a whole as legalism. Not each individual thing

Please try to understand

Thank you

 

[FollowHim]

Grace is no legalism

But people turn it to legalism, by making it something to be earned, Not a gift of God. which could never be earned.

There are three basic gospels in all the earth

1. Licentiousness - also called easy believing. A person says some sinners prayer, and magically they are saved and can live the way they always lived, because they are now saved (no faith in God is involved)

2. Grace through faith alone. Salvation is based on a person who has come to the end of him or herself. and become poor in spirit. To the point they have repented. and trust Gods plan of salvation. They call out to God to have mercy on them, knowing they are wretched souls. They are born again, and start a lifetime journey of being made Christlike

3. Legalism - Salvation starts with repenting, and coming to God in the spirit. but this salvation must be maintained or perfected by the flesh (works of commission or omission (not sinning or failing to live a righteous life)) and if these things are not done. Then the salvation can be lost. Including the thought that continued believe in ones own power is required.

If we look at all of the worlds religions (Christianity included) we will see most of them are number 3. We would call that trying to enter through the wide gate.

edit

I might add. In christian circles. All three gospels are called Gospels of Grace

I like this definition
1. No law, but grace has saved you through trust, so you walk as you like. No righteousness or holiness.
2. Grace and salvation, so you follow and walk after Jesus knowing a cleansed purified heart with the Holy Spirit.
3. Legalism, trying to live the walk of Christ, without the Holy Spirit. Hypocrisy and failure covered up.

All three claim faith in Jesus, except the way they experience it and live it differs.
I have spoken to lawless ones, who say you can have faith, become a murderer, lose your faith, and are still saved.
They would hold in the act of sinning you are still forgiven, so there is no responsibility for sin on the believer to walk with Jesus or not, it is just a bare soul in heaven at the end.

Legalism puts on a good show, but knows failure and sin, but hides it without walking in the light and being honest. And they regard admitting sin is such a disgrace, you cannot be forgiven or restored. If these folk do get rejected for whatever reason they often totally fall apart and join the first group, saying they were lost before and have now found Christ.
Some claim they did find Christ but were miss-lead, but those folk are definitely doomed to hell.

The free grace movement and hyper grace follows the first group.
A lot of southern baptist, or strict and particular baptists would fall into the 3rd group quite easily.
The middle group form the bulk of those called and seeking God with a sincere heart and are found everywhere.

Jesus calls us to see He is the overcomer, and we just call to all to follow. His elect will listen and follow and that is good enough. Wolves will tell you you need to rip and destroy the other groups, because that is Gods will, and these other groups are bringing defeat to the Kingdom. Praise God, God does not need our help in defeating others, just in being a light to His grace and love in a redeemed heart.

God gives grace to those He calls, Amen, God bless you

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes it is,, If you look at number 2. They (we) also started with repenting

Both also started with repenting and prayer. It is after this event that they went separate ways

I labeled number three as a whole as legalism. Not each individual thing

Please try to understand

Thank you

I agree with number 2. How do you think one is born again?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree with number 2. How do you think one is born again?

so you believe that a person who is saved is saved for all eternity which no chance of losing salvation because they did not do what was required to maintain salvation?

 

[CharismaticLady]

so you believe that a person who is saved is saved for all eternity which no chance of losing salvation because they did not do what was required to maintain salvation?

Of course not. We have free choice, just like the person in Hebrews 10:26-31. Though why someone would want to jeopardize heaven for willful sinning is beyond me.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course not. We have free choice, just like the person in Hebrews 10:26-31. Though why someone would want to jeopardize heaven for willful sinning is beyond me.

then you do not believe in number 2

You believe in number 3 - but this salvation must be maintained or perfected by the flesh (works of commission or omission (not sinning or failing to live a righteous life)) and if these things are not done. Then the salvation can be lost. Including the thought that continued believe in ones own power is required.

 

[CharismaticLady]

then you do not believe in number 2

You believe in number 3 - but this salvation must be maintained or perfected by the flesh (works of commission or omission (not sinning or failing to live a righteous life)) and if these things are not done. Then the salvation can be lost. Including the thought that continued believe in ones own power is required.

We all do what comes naturally. Naturally to the old nature. Or naturally to the new nature. If you must struggle with your nature, that is works.

I shouldn't have answered your post at all, as you edited it a few times from when I first saw it till now. Besides, I was half asleep and went back to bed both times. LOL

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We all do what comes naturally. Naturally to the old nature. Or naturally to the new nature. If you must struggle with your nature, that is works.

I shouldn't have answered your post at all, as you edited it a few times from when I first saw it till now. Besides, I was half asleep and went back to bed both times. LOL

If your working to maintain your salvation, It is works salvation

If your working because you are saved, And because you are trying to be more Christlike, it is called works of righteousness.

which works do we desire? I pray the second not the first.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If your working to maintain your salvation, It is works salvation

If your working because you are saved, And because you are trying to be more Christlike, it is called works of righteousness.

which works do we desire? I pray the second not the first.

Doing what comes naturally to your nature is not a work, and I said "new" nature. If someone only has their old nature, and trying to follow rules pertaining to the new nature, that is works; IOW not according to their nature, that is a work. I am born again and naturally do not sin willfully, and have love for everyone. But we still have free will, and even someone born again, can willfully go against their new nature and sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Doing what comes naturally to your nature is not a work, and I said "new" nature. If someone only has their old nature, and trying to follow rules pertaining to the new nature, that is works; IOW not according to their nature, that is a work. I am born again and naturally do not sin willfully, and have love for everyone. But we still have free will, and even someone born again, can willfully go against their new nature and sin.

1 John says otherwise does it not? That whoever is born f God can not live in sin?

it has nothing to do with free will it is everything to do with new nature. A person born of God would never freely chose to sin, because it is no longer his nature

 

[CharismaticLady]

1 John says otherwise does it not? That whoever is born f God can not live in sin?

it has nothing to do with free will it is everything to do with new nature. A person born of God would never freely chose to sin, because it is no longer his nature

I would agree, so why do so many Christians claim to sin?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I would agree, so why do so many Christians claim to sin?

So you think they are sinless?

that passage says they do not live in sin, you like like we did in our old nature

 

[CharismaticLady]

So you think they are sinless?

that passage says they do not live in sin, you like like we did in our old nature

Where does it say they don't "live in" sin, or "practice" sin? I've just seen "commit" sin, or "does not" sin. What do you see as the difference?

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keepshimself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where does it say they don't "live in" sin, or "practice" sin? I've just seen "commit" sin, or "does not" sin. What do you see as the difference?

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keepshimself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

your reading an English interpretation

do you sin?

 

[CharismaticLady]

your reading an English interpretation

do you sin?

I asked you what you see as the difference? Here are the literal translations.

We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;

every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.

and ye have known that he was manifested that our sins he may take away, and sin is not in him

and he who is keeping His commands, in Him he doth remain, and He in him; and in this we know that He doth remain in us, from the Spirit that He gave us.

 

[RogerDC]

Paul clearly said saved through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

That’s right - Paul says we are not saved by works - ie, works alone - ie, works without faith - as in “without faith it is impossible to please Him” (Heb 11:6). He is not referring works with faith - as has been explained to you many times, but you keep making the same dumb mistake and keep misinterpreting the same Scripture. Paul makes it clear in his letters that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works. If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he is clearly contradicting other NT writers, just as James, who says “a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE” and “faith WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD”. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he would have contradicted John, who described the “saints” as “ those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12). John also said, “And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him …” (1John 2:3-5).

If Paul preached salvation through faith without works, he would also have contradicted Peter:
“As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be HOLY yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile” (1Peter 1:14-17).

In Gal 5, Paul says to believers, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul is clearly warning believers that their sins can result in them not making it to Heaven - in other words, Paul is preaching faith and works.

In case, you haven’t noticed, good “works” is obeying God’s commandments, which is “sanctification”, which leads to “justification”, which leads to salvation (Romans 6:15-22). To not obey God’s commandments is practise sin (aka evil “works”), which leads to eternal death (Romans 6:23).

In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin..

Surely you haven’t interpreted this verse to mean that believers don’t sin? No, of course you haven’t - no one could possibly be that stupid.

Besides, 1John 1:8 says “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. Believers have free will and so they can choose to practise sin, and they often do. Faith doesn’t turn believers into robots that don’t sin - all believers sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11, Paul goes on to say - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Here we have a CONTRAST between the unrighteous and the righteous and it's not hard to find the unrighteous (who may even look like the righteous) mixed in with the righteous, hence the warning.

In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul uses the word “unrighteous” in the context of those who practise sinful DEEDS (aka WORKS). He is not referring to non-believers - there is no mention at all of faith or a lack of faith in this passage. You completely miss the point of the passage - Paul is warning believers (“Do not be deceived”) that their DEEDS - aka their WORKS - can destroy their hope of salvation - in other words, he is preaching salvation through faith and works.

 

[RogerDC]

So you believe these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were believers, even after Jesus said to them, "I NEVER knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity." Is that descriptive of a saved believer?

No, of course not - In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus is not addressing “saved believers” - he’s addressing unsaved believers.

In regards to these unbelievers prophesying, casting out demons and performing miracles in His name, there are false prophets who prophecy in the name of Jesus and even make false prophecies.

Where did they get power to prophesy, cast out demons and perform miracles in Jesus’ name, if not from Jesus?

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him.

So, according to you, Jesus chose an “unbelieving, unclean devil” to be an apostle? And not only that, Jesus sent this “unbelieving, unclean devil” out to preach and also gave him the power to cure all diseases and cast out demons? Is this a joke?

Btw, how come Psalm 41:9 describes Judas as a “bosom friend” to Jesus, whom Jesus “trusted”?

Demons can easily put on a show and make you think they cast them out.

Matt 7:21-23 doesn’t say anything about fake exorcisms. You’re clutching at straws.

The same reason why other unbelievers call Jesus, "Lord." They are deceived into believing that they are believers and He is their Lord and they are doing all the right things a child of God would do, even though they are lost.

Believers are believers - whether they do the “right things” or not.

 

[RogerDC]

If your doing them to earn or maintain (keep from losing) salvation. Then yeah, That's earning your salvation.

Paul says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). In other words, he is saying, “Strive to keep His commandments, without which no one will get to Heaven” - which is in effect, a warning. So if I am tempted to sin (ie, to disobey a commandment), and I recall and take heed of Paul’s warning, and don’t sin (ie, obey a commandment), you claim this amounts to “earning my salvation”. In that case, what do you think I should do - give into the temptation and sin, or resist temptation and not sin?

And another question, if I may, if I don’t sin because of heeding Paul’s warning - which according to you is “earning my salvation” - have I sinned? That is to say, is attempting “earn my salvation” a sin?