The "Israel of God": Who are they?
- Thread starter Tong2020
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Likewise Chris. It's the least I can do to express love on a forum like this.
I agree on the words of Romans 10:1-4 as may be true to these Judaizers, but I have to say, that Romans 10:1-4 is spoken by Paul pertaining to the gospel unbelieving Israelites. However, these Judaizers are believers, not unbelievers, who teach it is necessary to be circumcised, to adopt Jewish customs and practices, especially those found in the Law of Moses, to be saved. In this part of his epistle to the Galatian church, why these Judaizers do as they do, according to Paul, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. (v.12) and that they desire to have the Gentile believers to be circumcised that they may boast in their flesh (v.13).
The rule, which I agree is found and embodied in the statements of Paul in v.14-16, is what Paul was talking about in his epistle. If I may put it this way, the flesh profiteth nothing, it is the spirit that gives life. In another way, I'd say, faith apart from works.
You said in your other post "the 'rule' concerning circumcision, recorded in Galatians 6:14-15 that a distinction on Paul's part was necessary for the reason I gave in reply#40." As can be seen in our exchange here, the rule is not really only about circumcision, but really about the gospel. Paul wanted to give these Judaizers, a last blow in this epistle of his, that he did in this form and manner, referring to them all who are children of God, the saved, as "the Israel of God", as his sort of final triumph over them and their contention, hitting them where it hurts the most to them, their pride in their flesh, being Israelites.
Tong
R0171
Last edited:
Hello @Tong2020,
I thank you for this further response.
Yes, these Judaizers were indeed 'believers', I agree: but they manifest much the same zeal without knowledge expressed in Romans 10:1-4, and ignorance of the fact that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. They also sought to pervert the gospel of Christ (Galatians 1:7). I thank you for pointing out the truth of Galatians 6:12-13, and the reasons why they so acted. However I cannot agree with your conclusion regarding the words, 'the Israel of God'.
Please note: I have modified reply #40, and subsequent entries, because I was not happy with what I had written. So for me this issue is still in the process of consideration.
* Thank you for taking the time to engage with me on this @Tong2020.
Within the love of Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
Last edited:
Also, @Nancy, @farouk, @Anthony D'Arienzo , @Preacher4Truth, @Eternally Grateful, @marksman, @kcnalp, @Enoch111, @Episkopos, @VictoryinJesus, @Jay Ross, @Rocky Wiley, @Timtofly, @bbyrd009.
Let me share to you the following about Israel.
First, who is the Israel we know, at least before Jesus Christ came some 2000 plus years ago?
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
They are the seed of Abraham, through Isaac, through Jacob, and through the 12 children of Jacob, and so forth. Let's refer to them here as simply "Israelites".
Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Paul says in Romans 9:6 that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. That means not all Israelites are the Israel that God had chosen. Paul moved on to further identify Israel, saying that they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise. So, the chosen Israel of God, which Paul refers to as the children of God, are not the children of the flesh, or in other words, not necessarily the Israelites by human birth, not ethnic Israel.
Who then are the Israel of God, the children of God, the chosen people of God, whom according to Paul, in Romans 9, are the children of promise?
Paul gives us the answer in Gal. 4:28.
Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
According to scriptures, the Christians, that is, are children of promise, as Isaac was, born according to the Spirit.
These children of promise, who are the children of God (Rom. 9:8), who are the chosen people of God, are the Israel of God spoken by Paul in Galatians 6:16.
Tong
R0189
Last edited:
'And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace be on them, and mercy,
and upon the Israel of God.'
(Galatians 6:16)
Hello @Tong2020,
With respect, there is no Scriptural justification for the use of this term, in the way you have described, anywhere else in Scripture. So I can't agree with you on this. I believe Paul pauses to specify those who were once Israelites according to the flesh ( Corinthians 10:18), but now are the 'Israel of God', true spiritual children of Abraham (Romans 9:6; Philippians 3:3).
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello @charity,
Let me share to you the following scriptures which speaks of the same subject Paul talks about in his epistle to the Galatian Christians and also on Romans 9 about circumcision and the Jews, that is, Israel, which was also written by Paul:
Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Who is a Jew, who is of the circumcision of the flesh, but he who is of Israel?
Who is of the circumcision of the heart, in the Spirit? Why do Paul refer to him as a "Jew"? Is it because he is circumcised in the flesh? No. But because he is circumcised, but not of the flesh, but of the heart, in the Spirit. That is the true Jew according to Paul, that is, the true Israel, the Israel of God.
If you don't like the term "Israel of God", well that does not really matter. We are just trying to figure out and know whom Paul refers to when He use the title "Israel of God", by comparing scriptures with scriptures.
Chris, I am just sharing this to you for your consideration, as a brother to a sister in Christ. As I said, I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that gives us understanding and conviction. You should follow what the Spirit says to you in your heart, not what others say, even a brethren like me.
In Christ,
Tong
R0197
Hello @Tong2020,
Thank you for sharing.
With respect, this thread is of your making, and the question, 'The Israel of God? Who are they?' is yours not mine. For I have no problem with this term, 'the Israel of God', only with the way it is used by some: for there are those who use it to deny that Israel has any further part in the purpose of God; and that the Church has taken it's place. I have no problem either in understanding the verses you have quoted, but they do not validate the use of this term in regard to any other company than that stated, 'The Israel of God'. It should be allowed to stand alone, and not be adulterated by our reasoning, or used to mean something of our own devising.
The fact is that there are two categories mentioned in Galatians 6:16, Those who ‘walk according to this rule’ (referring to:-Galatians 6:12-15), and ‘the Israel of God’, and for both categories Paul desires peace and mercy. I believe that ‘the Israel of God’ are those believing Israelites at Jerusalem, from among whom the 'false brethren' (Galatians 2:4) who were disturbing the Gentile believers at Galatia came (Acts 15:24 & Acts 15:5). Paul wished the same peace and mercy upon his believing brethren in Jerusalem, who were 'the Israel of God.' This does no injustice to the context, and reflects the mind of Paul in regard to his believing brethren in Jerusalem spoken of in Galatians chapter one and two.
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Last edited:
Hello again,
The words, 'peace' and 'mercy' used in relation to both those 'who walk according to this rule', and 'the Israel of God' is of significance in the light of the fact that the false brethren, who had come out to Galatia from the assembly at Jerusalem to seek to pervert the gospel and turn the believers there from the liberty which they had in Christ Jesus.
After the admonitions and teachings of Paul throughout this epistle: at the end I believe he sought both mercy and peace for both parties. So that there be no lack of love towards the assembly at Jerusalem from whom the false brethren came out, but that peace, and mercy should be the portion of both.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The words, 'peace' and 'mercy' used in relation to both those 'who walk according to this rule', and 'the Israel of God' is of significance in the light of the fact that the false brethren, who had come out to Galatia from the assembly at Jerusalem to seek to pervert the gospel and turn the believers there from the liberty which they had in Christ Jesus.
After the admonitions and teachings of Paul throughout this epistle: at the end I believe he sought both mercy and peace for both parties. So that there be no lack of love towards the assembly at Jerusalem from whom the false brethren came out, but that peace, and mercy should be the portion of both.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hello Chris,
I gather that, in your view, the first group are those who walk according to the rule, that is, concerning circumcision (v.14-15). These would then be Jewish Christians who aren't Judaizers. And the second group, the Israel of God, in your view, are the assembly at Jerusalem, which are Jewish Christians as well.
I think you should see what Paul feels about false brethren. There are, in the assembly at Jerusalem, some Christians of the sect of the Pharisees, who are Judaizers, who believes and teach that it is necessary that the Gentile Christians be circumcised and that they should keep the law of Moses. Paul calls them false brethren. Certainly Paul was not praying to God for peace and mercy for these false Christians, these Judaizers. In this same epistle where Paul speaks about these Judaizers, listen to what he says of those who pervert the gospel of Christ, such as what these Judaizers who trouble the Gentile Christians, preaching to them a different gospel.
Galatians 1: 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
See also how Paul even rebuked Peter in Galatians 2:11-16 in relation to this.
Tong
R0208
Good post.
Now, the next step to know is that God made a promise to future national Israel, and that we are included in their future promise per the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
The difference with us today, is that is is a dark glass, partial experience, as opposed to the massive(entire population) infilling of the nation of Israel in the future per Jer 31 at the return of Christ to them.
Hi @Tong2020,
Thank you, but I am aware of what Paul had to say about false brethren.
The false brethren came out from the assembly at Jerusalem as we read in Acts 13:22-24, which the Jerusalem Church acknowledged: but they said that, 'they gave no such commandment'.
'Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church,
to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas;
namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
And they wrote letters by them after this manner;
The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting
unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words,
subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:
to whom we gave no such commandment:'
* For the believing Israelites at Jerusalem (the Israel of God) Paul desires 'peace' and 'mercy'. Paul loved His brethren in Christ Jesus.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,
You are right, they gave no such commandment to those men who, in all likelihood belong to the sect of the Pharisees who are believers. It can't be denied, that there in the Jerusalem church, there are believers who are of the sect of the Pharisees who are saying that "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:5)". In other words, it can't be denied that in the Jerusalem church, there are these believers but are Judaizers, who are not rejected, apparently, by the Jerusalem church, and who are numbered among them as brethren. Paul, on the other hand refers to them as preaching a different gospel and pervert the gospel of Christ, and that they should be accursed(Gal. 1:6-9). The other apostles, such as Peter, seems not to be straightforward about the truth of the gospel (Gal. 2:11-16), unlike Paul, who is. It is very unlikely that Paul would pray for God to bless these Judaizers whom he said should be accursed.
In Christ,
Tong
R0213
bbyrd009
Groper
- Nov 30, 2016
- 33,943
- 12,081
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States Minor Outlying Islands
I don't see a misrepresentation there, more so, a gross misrepresentation. If you are referring to my first statement, it's may be that it is not properly worded. So, in that case and for that, I apologize. Let me here say it in a different way.
Original statement: You are right, they gave no such commandment to those men who, in all likelihood belong to the sect of the Pharisees who are believers.
Re-phrased: You are right, they gave no such commandment to those men. Those men I believe, in all likelihood belong to the sect of the Pharisees who are believers.
I am sorry if the first statement was not clear to you and was offended by it.
I am not leaning on my own understanding and I am reading what scriptures actually say. Thank you for your advise. I think that advise goes to you as well as it goes to all the Christians.
In Jesus Christ,
Tong
R0216
Hello @Tong2020,
I praise God for the grace you have shown in your reply. Please forgive me for my lack of it.
The believing remnant of Israel whether in Jerusalem or elsewhere among the nations were called of God and therefore precious in His sight. The whole cannot be judged by the few can they?
I may be wrong in regard to the phrase in Galatians 6:16 as to whom it was directed: but I fear that it is being used by some to substantiate the belief that the church has replaced Israel in the purposes of God, and that is what I am seeking to prevent.
May the word of God be the arbiter in this matter, as with all else, and may His perfect will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Last edited:
All Israel took the vow at Sinai.
Deuteronomy 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
Up to that point, Israel was composed only of descendants of Jacob. The Egyptians who left with them and other Gentiles with them who also took the vow were added on and incorporated as indicated by "stranger."
10 Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
It also included the souls of Israel not in bodies but who would be born later. They were there in spirit and who entered into covenant with God that day at Sinai.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
Hello @charity,
Yes, I think many get confused in their reading of scriptures. And that is so, for various reasons. I would want to believe that the simple Christian read scriptures for the purpose of knowing God better, that he may have a better personal relationship with him, than he presently have. In doing so, he may err, and could result to more errors, even sin. I believe that God deals with His erring child concerning such error and sin. It's different when one intentionally take scriptures and have them mean according to what he would want them to mean, which obviously is for his selfish self interest. That's perversion of God's words.
So, fear not about those some who use Gal.6:16 to substantiate the belief that the church has replaced Israel in the purposes of God. God will deal with them who are in error. Besides, the truth always will be the truth, and will come out in the end.
Thank you, as well for being kind and humble.
In Jesus Christ,
Tong
R0224
Greetings Giuliano!
Yes, no doubt, Israel includes not only those whom God lead out of the land of Egypt in the days of Moses, but all those as you pointed out in your post.
But let me share this to you. When Paul speak of Israel in Romans 9, he was not referring to every people that composed the nation Israel, that is, more than the descendants of Jacob, includes the proselytes to Judaism. He was referring to Israel as being his brethren, his countrymen according to the flesh, specifically then, the descendants of Jacob.
Now, Paul said in Romans 9:6 "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,".
May I know your commentary on that statement of Paul regarding Israel?
Tong
R0225
I think that can be explained by the rules set forth by Moses to prevent wrong souls benig born into Israel. For example, if a Gentile man converted to Judiasm, it took three generations of faithfulness on the part of their descendants before they were able to enter the congregation of the LORD. Children of Ammon and Moab men could never enter. (Deuteronomy 23).
Who your mother was was also important, perhaps more important. No one could be considered part of Israel if his mother was an unbeliever; but if a woman (like Ruth) converted, her children could become part of the congregation.
The problem with Joshua the High Priest (when he was accused by Satan) was that he had permitted his sons to marry non-believing women. If that had been left standing, their children might be souls who properly belonged in Israel -- it could be souls you could call children of the serpent.
Ezra 10 discusses how the "strange wives" the men of Israel had married had to be divorced; and that included Joshua's sons.
Ezra 10:18 And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: namely, of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah.
19 And they gave their hands that they would put away their wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock for their trespass.
Satan was trying to infiltrate the lineage of the High Priest then and almost succeeded. The "seed of the serpent" got weeded out in the days of Ezra. I would say however it did infiltrate Israel later, even the priesthood. Souls were born into Israel which did not belong to the spiritual Israel. They had not taken the vow at Sinai. Childen of the serpent got born into Israel because the men of Israel had married pagan wives. They perverted Judaism, and Jesus said as much in Matthew 23.
Herod came from an Edomite family. Supposedly he converted to being a Jew; but I doubt his sincerity. I think he was still a child of the serpent.
I think that Paul was not really referring to that when He said "they are not all Israel who are of Israel". For he went on to say:
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Paul said nothing about the things which you pointed out there. But Paul was telling us about the Israel of God, more than that they are not all who comprised the nation Israel, nor are they Israel because they are the seed of Abraham. They are the descendants of Isaac, but not really those according to the flesh, but the children of promise. So Paul here tells us that the Israel of God, are the children of promise, and these are the children of God. Paul said this as the answer, in anticipation, to those who might ask and think that the word of God has taken no effect concerning Israel, who do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ then, who at the time even, were they who had caused the Messiah of God to be crucified.
Tong
R0233
Similar threads
