So? It still says what it says!
If it applies to Jewish Christians, they are just as Christian as any in history! Hebrews 10: 26- 31 certainly proves OSAS to be a fraud!
The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever
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So? It still says what it says!
If it applies to Jewish Christians, they are just as Christian as any in history! Hebrews 10: 26- 31 certainly proves OSAS to be a fraud!
You are correct! There are valid links between OSAS and Antinomianism. Doctrines have consequences. I know many OSAS believers that do not use their doctrine as a means to sin, but they are living above their creed. They can talk a good talk, and even live very holy lives, but if OSAS is true, and it is followed to its inevitable conclusion, then those that use it for sinning and unbelief are completely consistent with the doctrine. You can say all day long that OSAS doesn't teach a "Sin-and-Win" Theology, but it does! Follow the doctrine to it's logical end and it leads to Antinomianism.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I am always excited about biblical truth. What I am not excited about is people who claim to be the only ones with the truth.
It is no different to someone who claims to be a member of a perfect church but as soon as they step inside it is less than perfect.
Jesus put it, my sheep listen to me and follow.
Our loyalty is to Jesus not a group. Interestingly I hear the same "they are dead" from all groups, the words do not work in their lives. Converting ones internal life into an external reality is a long walk.
I wish people just listened to the King and started to work it through. Our struggle is working with our limitations and desires, and learning emotional appropriateness. Surrender to people leads to exploitation, surrender to God, to His Kingdom.
Once emotions start to flow, learning their language takes time, trust and love. It is why love, serving and sacrifice are so crucial through the cross. Yes attraction is there, but also respect and boundaries.
Some will never cope, while others will truly develope in the Lord. Amen
Well before you got grace where you perfect are you perfect now dont you still need grace.
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
You are right, but we are creatures of emotion not logic.
Emotional relativism means the reason we hold various ideas are historical and based on our emotional experience. It means people can be loving while OSAS, and caught in sinful emotional reactions, and knowing they are not lawless.
They therefore react badly to sin to win, but do not know why, other than its the enemy challenging their faith. The more they dispute, the worse it becomes, like some, nothing seems to move them, only disdain and bile flow.
If emotional relativism gets like concrete, when Jesus comes they will just crack and fall apart. We call this hardness dead. They are aware of it but have no answer. God bless you
Since you obviously do not have a Biblical answer, I suggest that you stop harping on the notion that if someone is perfect, they have no need of grace.
Perfection is in the Bible, so what Biblical evidence do you have that grace is not needed for that?
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Perfection is an interesting topic.
So does anyone care to describe a perfect person? Details please.
No need to mix in Grace....we can get to that later.
So does anyone care to describe a perfect person? Details please.
No need to mix in Grace....we can get to that later.
Job is a fantastic example of walking with God. It is possible to be righteous, to know Gods blessing and then to fail in some area, and believe one has a right or there is something wrong, when actually our Lord and King has it all under His control.
And grace in a sense is not an added extra, it is part of the Lord and part of His people, so we are always in grace, and the Lord waits, patiently for this to resolve to their ultimate end. It is easy to say, "I believe" and then want things set today, but to wait and work it through for 50 years or longer, will that still be "I believe". Abraham was old when he got a son, but it was promised early on. When our scale is eternity, what is 50 years?
Moses was special, he spoke to God face to face, though he never saw Gods face, as that would cause death.
But even Moses failed in a small regard, in rebuking Israel for their stubboness, than put this in context with the Lord.
"Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" Num 20:10
Moses failed in one regard, trusting the Lord. Moses was not going to bring the water out, the Lord was through him.
But his position finally had got the better of him.
The Lord responded in grace towards Moses, and stopped him from entering the promised land.
Mans view of perfection is not Gods. God regarded a perfect altar as one made from unshaped stone.
25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it.
Exo 20:25
We have to listen and learn what is Gods definition of perfection, not ours or the worlds, as only His counts, eternally, and now.
A legalists view of perfection
Perfection is a state of being when it is impossible to fall or do something wrong.
This is impossible, because even God, Jesus could have fallen, it was His choice not to, to listen to His Father.
So in this perfection definition Jesus was not perfect. But Jesus was perfect because He was God, so perfection includes the possibility of failure.
And it is this that makes the lamb worthy, because He could have failed, He could have chosen the way of evil and wrong, but He did not.
The amazing thing about Jesus and God is this free choice, which He gives us also. There is real risk here, but it is not defined or known.
And the Lord was willing to take this risk, to become fully human, limited, isolated, tempted, constrained and still walk the path of light.
Heaven bows to the King, because He did the impossible, and He won.
So God gives grace to help those walking the path, to return if they fall, to lift up and restore, to call back and encourage those who walk.
But even with this, many will not come, and many will start and drift away, caught in the worlds snares.
Perfection is a state of being when it is impossible to fall or do something wrong.
This is impossible, because even God, Jesus could have fallen, it was His choice not to, to listen to His Father.
So in this perfection definition Jesus was not perfect. But Jesus was perfect because He was God, so perfection includes the possibility of failure.
And it is this that makes the lamb worthy, because He could have failed, He could have chosen the way of evil and wrong, but He did not.
The amazing thing about Jesus and God is this free choice, which He gives us also. There is real risk here, but it is not defined or known.
And the Lord was willing to take this risk, to become fully human, limited, isolated, tempted, constrained and still walk the path of light.
Heaven bows to the King, because He did the impossible, and He won.
So God gives grace to help those walking the path, to return if they fall, to lift up and restore, to call back and encourage those who walk.
But even with this, many will not come, and many will start and drift away, caught in the worlds snares.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Well, As a supposed avid bible studier as you claim to be, You too should be a cherry-picker. and not just assume things are what people tell you they are. but study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of God.
So lets do this and not just assume what we were taught by our leaders are correct.
1 John. The flesh and blood
1. Jesus said to work for Not for food which perishes (like manna) but food which will endure forever which he (the son of man) will give us (not some priest)
2. He said this food, whoever eats will never hunger, never thirst, Live forever, Never die, HAS eternal life, WILL be risen by him (not delivered)
3. He said whoever eats and drinks are given to God, and will NEVER be lost. That is is in fact the will of God that whoever BELIEVES in the one who was sent, has all these things
4. It is a spiritual food. Which as Jesus proclaimed and Peter confirmed are the words of eternal life. Remembering that it is the holy spirit who gives life. the flesh (physical food like manna) is nothing.
5. It is compared to manna, A food. which the children of Israel ate OFTEN and a sample of which was placed into the Ark of the covenant as a witness against Israel. and to remind them of the sins of the fathers.
6. Jesus said who ate it and who will nto eat it. He said the ones who did not eat are those who do not believe, while the ones who did eat. Like peter. were those who believed.
1 Cor
1. Unlike the food in John 6, which Jesus told us to work for it, and would be given by him personally (will be given to you by the son of man). Is given by other Christians when the group would meet
2. Did not promise that the person who ate would never hunger or thirst, live forever, never die, They have eternal life, they will be risen by him
3. It is physical food. Used to represent the spiritual act of Jesus and giving his body and blood for our sins on the cross
4. Unlike the food of John 6, meant to make us alive and KEEP us alive We are told to do this "often in remembrance of me" Which means not only does this food DIE (lose its life giving properties, because it does not endure forever) We are told to eat often (like they were told to eat manna which would sustain them for only a period of time)
5. Believers and unbelievers alike have taken part in this new church tradition started in acts. In fact. We were told many would take it in sin Getting drunk and hording the food. while letting others starve because they ate all the food and did not share (it is not even represented by what most traditional churches do. it was a dinner of celebration. the eating of a meal, while breaking bread and drinking the cup (wine) with that meal. and doing it in remembrance of Christ.
So you see. If YOU would "cherry-pick" these verses like you are commanded to (study to show yourself approved) you too would see, as have so many others. that these two passages are speaking of two totally different things
1. A life sustaining empowering food which endures forever and gives the one who chews and gnaws in this food and is fed by its power (by believing and receiving what it offers. and not just tasting it ans spitting it out in unbelief)
2. A tradition, a ceremony used to remind us of what Jesus did back on Calvary. do often in remembrance of me.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You need to learn to be a cherry picker,
in the other thread I proved they are not the same
you continue to believe however you wish though, but if you want to continue to talk, I suggest you back off with your remarks and accusations,
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
The issue is not works
the issue is what are we doing works for
works done to earn or maintain salvation. Are called bloody rags, self righteousness, and will be rejected by God
works done by believers who are working out the salvation are called works of righteousness, fruit bearing, earning rewards, but even believers can do works in a wrong attitude, it is these works which will be burned as wood hay straw at the bema seat
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Amen
I think this is where a lot of differences come in, how we interpret the different examples
the word (seed) is given to all, but the word falls on people different ways, and as such, produces different results depending on how people react to the word.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
If it was, then it would look like the church in acts, I have been to many a catholic mass, and I see no resemblance at all
so just saying this is what you believe, I think we need to go deeper than this.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
It does not matter, a work is a work
if a work of man is done to earn or maintain salvation (say like in the OT, works of the law, or in the New Testament commands given to the church) then it is called a works based salvation is it not? Because you are doing those acts of righteousness to help gain you salvation
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yep but must be taken in context
Heb 10, when taken in context of the law. Shows that these sins, will never be forgiven, because the law can not grant forgiveness.
And it saddens me you think your sins are not willful. Sounds like like the jew who puffed his chest against the tax collector.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Easy believism founds itself on you come to faith, you receive salvation, are saved, and will be saved eternally, and have passed from death to life, and can never lose it, because it is sealed.
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:20-22
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 john 1:9
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:2
18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:18-21
The reason why people claim they cannot lose what God has given them, because what they have is just a gift external to themselves, and they are as they are, as if nothing has changed. So they rejoice as sinners saved, as seen as cleansed but still unclean, as seen as righteous but still in rebellion and hatred of Gods ways.
If the world is the world of rebellion and doomed to the fire and destruction, one has be become separate from it, and part of the Kingdom. And this change must be complete and final. Even sharing with the world is communion between light and darkness.
If we are exhorted to live a holy life in everything we do, we must be holy or else it is impossible. And if the impure will not inherit the Kingdom of God, we must be made pure.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:5
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb 3:14
To argue with these principles is to argue with God and His word. But many have walked this path and found the Lord, which is why He came, and so can you. God bless you.
Many claim salvation on a superficial level, even after years of being in church, yet truly have hearts of stone and no sensitivity to the things of God and love, so little wonder they believe they have arrived, while not even have begun.
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:20-22
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 john 1:9
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:2
18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:18-21
The reason why people claim they cannot lose what God has given them, because what they have is just a gift external to themselves, and they are as they are, as if nothing has changed. So they rejoice as sinners saved, as seen as cleansed but still unclean, as seen as righteous but still in rebellion and hatred of Gods ways.
If the world is the world of rebellion and doomed to the fire and destruction, one has be become separate from it, and part of the Kingdom. And this change must be complete and final. Even sharing with the world is communion between light and darkness.
If we are exhorted to live a holy life in everything we do, we must be holy or else it is impossible. And if the impure will not inherit the Kingdom of God, we must be made pure.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:5
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb 3:14
To argue with these principles is to argue with God and His word. But many have walked this path and found the Lord, which is why He came, and so can you. God bless you.
Many claim salvation on a superficial level, even after years of being in church, yet truly have hearts of stone and no sensitivity to the things of God and love, so little wonder they believe they have arrived, while not even have begun.
Panic, God wants me to be Holy, pure, cleansed, righteous, loving, just, kind, gentle, patient.
What a burden that I cannot carry, my sin makes me angry, hateful, unforgiving, stubborn, irritable, unkind, jealous, envious, greedy, lustful, boastful, self serving, proud, vain, pompous, condemning, dominating.
Except Gods way is life and my way is death. Opps, maybe I should start repenting and get myself straight before Him and ask for His help.
So believers who know Jesus are claiming the panic they feel and condemnation shows satan is falsely accusing them of the sin they know they commit, and it is a ploy of the enemy to convince them they can be like Jesus.
I had one contributor once tell me off saying how dare I suggest I could be like Jesus. I am a sinner and Jesus is God, blasphemy. Except this is what Jesus said through Him we can become like Him, transformed, changed, made new.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21
We are being offered a place with Jesus, He is not joking about what is possible, if you just have the faith to believe.
God bless you
What a burden that I cannot carry, my sin makes me angry, hateful, unforgiving, stubborn, irritable, unkind, jealous, envious, greedy, lustful, boastful, self serving, proud, vain, pompous, condemning, dominating.
Except Gods way is life and my way is death. Opps, maybe I should start repenting and get myself straight before Him and ask for His help.
So believers who know Jesus are claiming the panic they feel and condemnation shows satan is falsely accusing them of the sin they know they commit, and it is a ploy of the enemy to convince them they can be like Jesus.
I had one contributor once tell me off saying how dare I suggest I could be like Jesus. I am a sinner and Jesus is God, blasphemy. Except this is what Jesus said through Him we can become like Him, transformed, changed, made new.
21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21
We are being offered a place with Jesus, He is not joking about what is possible, if you just have the faith to believe.
God bless you
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