The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[FollowHim]

Rituals are the ties that bind you to a specific group. Without it, there is nothing there, because it says nothing about the actual contents of ones heart that only God knows in the end. You're just going through the motions, and nothing about it saves or brings you any closer to God.

Israel were full of ceremonies and rituals instituted by God, with a real temple, priests, clothing etc. so to condemn this as empty is wrong.

People's hearts can be empty and also full in the same group. God declares this problem through the prophets.

It is why I get cautious about seeing the blessing and seeing the mistake. We all have ceremonies, choruses, sermons, prayers to a formula. God bless you

 

[Dcopymope]

Israel were full of ceremonies and rituals instituted by God, with a real temple, priests, clothing etc. so to condemn this as empty is wrong.

If all those rituals had a shred of actual value to it in itself, surely it would have stood the test of time. It didn't end well. Makes me wonder why people put so much stock in it. They take it seriously for the wrong reasons. The only real reason why God required all that mess, was to be a foreshadow of his son, nothing more than that. The rituals in themselves were nothing, and the only reason why a priest was required at all when it comes down to it was made very clear to Moses on Mount Sinai, "if you see me, you die". The need for a priest is about the only thing that is still at all relevant, since Jesus is our high priest. The problem is, we have people, who dress in garments, usurping his position and authority as "priests", "vicars of Christ", "Father", etc.

 

[FollowHim]

If all those rituals had a shred of actual value to it in itself, surely it would have stood the test of time. It didn't end well. Makes me wonder why people put so much stock in it. They take it seriously for the wrong reasons. The only real reason why God required all that mess, was to be a foreshadow of his son, nothing more than that. The rituals in themselves were nothing, and the only reason why a priest was required at all when it comes down to it was made very clear to Moses on Mount Sinai, "if you see me, you die". The need for a priest is about the only thing that is still at all relevant, since Jesus is our high priest. The problem is, we have people, who dress in garments, usurping his position and authority as "priests", "vicars of Christ", "Father", etc.

When you work for an interdenominational group you begin to see as people we love ritual and safe behaviour cycles. Jesus speaks to the heart, and when the heart is alive things change.

So that's what I am looking for, a heart of flesh not stone. God bless you

 

[Dcopymope]

When you work for an interdenominational group you begin to see as people we love ritual and safe behaviour cycles. Jesus speaks to the heart, and when the heart is alive things change.

So that's what I am looking for, a heart of flesh not stone. God bless you

So you believe all that rubbish makes the heart alive? Not what I experienced at my church. They all left the church every sunday as dead as they were before.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The 2 points you made above in RED are LIES.

- I never preached a "works based sacramental system".
- I never "denied" that those who parttake of the Eucharist will get what Jesus promised. On the contrary - I believe with ALL of my heart in those promises.

Maybe you should pay attention when you read my posts instead of going off the deep-end . . .

Lol you are catholic correct!

and yes, by saying you must continue to partake, you deny the promises

you may not see it, but that does not make it fact

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Rituals are the ties that bind you to a specific group. Without it, there is nothing there, because it says nothing about the actual contents of ones heart that only God knows in the end. You're just going through the motions, and nothing about it saves or brings you any closer to God.

There is rituals all over scripture

the OT in the law had many

the ritual never saved anyone, hebrews makes this as a fact

so if the Ot rituals did not save jews, why are we so determined to say NT rituals save us..

in reality, we (those who profess works) fell for the same lie the jews did, and can’t see it

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lol you are catholic correct!
and yes, by saying you must continue to partake, you deny the promises
you may not see it, but that does not make it fact

It's not ME who says we must continue - it's the Word of GOD:

1 Cor. 11:23-25
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

YOU do it YOUR way - I'll do it GOD'S way . . .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's not ME who says we must continue - it's the Word of GOD:

1 Cor. 11:23-25
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

YOU do it YOUR way - I'll do it GOD'S way . . .

Your in corinthians

the very fact you,use continue to eat that flesh proves it is not the flesh of John 6

John 6 is your issue,

 

[FollowHim]

So you believe all that rubbish makes the heart alive? Not what I experienced at my church. They all left the church every sunday as dead as they were before.

There is a problem in your language. Words have meanings, but the difference between an actor who recites lines and those who live it is the heart.
I cannot speak for other people, but I know the beauty of the language, and when you believe the meaning of the words they are very powerful expressions of faith.

There is a sense of disrespect of Gods word and His people if you start saying it is rubbish, and not specifying what the problem truly is. And the problem is a living faith, true repentance and an open heart. I have heard too many people use the word dead, who themselves did not have the life of Christ, so this is often about something else.

I would use the word connection, people did not connect. If you know the word existential faith, it is a form of atheism where the rituals are performed but it is thought there is nothing actually real behind it. And certainly some have this kind of faith. But it does not make the words less meaningful or powerful if you actually understand them.

What is crucial is the faith held so you need a believers church. A lot of official churches believed by practising the services etc. people would come to faith over time. It may have happened to some, but for a lot it is just a formalism without reality. Being a baptist our members are all confessing christians which makes a different congregation, and generally alive in the faith and the loving sense.

I have also learnt what is someones contribution in a church can be a small window to their true expression, and how one interacts in the church context may not reflect at all who they really are. So when you get to know some, you find a deep spiritual background, while others are at the other extreme. So it becomes impossible to generalise or even use a generic term like rubbish.

Those who use such terms tend to also rubbish everyone and everything, so I wonder what faith they really have, with such little sensitivity.
God bless you

 

[Dcopymope]

Your in corinthians

the very fact you,use continue to eat that flesh proves it is not the flesh of John 6

John 6 is your issue,

Pagan religious practices such as that which was done in Mithraism has become so thoroughly embedded in Catholicism that we now have "Christians" believing in cannibalism. I might as well build a statue of Count Dracula and worship it.

 

[FollowHim]

Pagan religious practices such as that which was done in Mithraism has become so thoroughly embedded in Catholicism that we now have "Christians" believing in cannibalism. I might as well build a statue of Count Dracula and worship it.

Well if you want to go this far, it is enough for me to say thanks. I do not think we can have a constructive interaction, as you do not know what you are talking about.

On the subject of cannibalism the early church fathers recorded people did report this because they drank the blood and eat the body of Christ, though symbolically, it could be seen based on the words, as cannibalism, except it is not.

 

[mjrhealth]

You ignore any Scripture that contradicts your idiotic theology. Therefore it's a waste of time trying to reason with you. Your theology is dishonest and vacuous.

What Love is Idiotic, yes shows where you stand, God is Love end of story.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your in corinthians
the very fact you,use continue to eat that flesh proves it is not the flesh of John 6
John 6 is your issue,

Once again - you're confusion lies in the fact that you are a cherry-picker - NOT a serious Scripture student.
The passage from 1 Cor. corresponds with BOTH the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 - AND the Last supper narratives.

LEARN how to properly divide the Word of God . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pagan religious practices such as that which was done in Mithraism has become so thoroughly embedded in Catholicism that we now have "Christians" believing in cannibalism. I might as well build a statue of Count Dracula and worship it.

OR, you might learn HOW to read the Bible and stop depending on your own ignorance or the mind-numbing ignorance of idiots like Jack Chick and Alexander Hislop who have filled your head with ideas about paganism and "Mithraism".

In short - do your HOMEWORK . . .

 

[RogerDC]

cc: @Eternally Grateful

The way I see works is, before repenting and receiving Christ's Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), man tried by his own sinful nature to do good and keep the Old Testament commandments. The law failed because of the weakness of the nature of man. So any good works to be good enough would never be good enough to be saved. Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. But that was the Old Covenant.

That is why the New Covenant is not law, but the SPIRIT. The Spirit changes our old nature by taking the desire to sin out of it. We now are able to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and thus the good we now can do is righteous.

Works can be either good or evil (Romans 2:5-8). Good works are obeying God’s commandments; evil works are disobeying God’s commandments, which is sin. So when James 2:24 says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, he is simply saying “a man is justified by obeying God and not by faith alone”. When James says “faith without works is dead”, he is simply saying “faith without obedience is dead”.
This same formula for salvation (faith and obedience) is found in Rev 14:12 says the same thing, when it describes the “saints” as “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (see also Rev 12:17).

Paul preaches the same formula when he says, “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14);
and “They profess to know God, by they deny Him by their deeds, they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed” (Titus 1:16).

The gospel of John also preaches the same formula:
”He who BELEIVES in the Son has eternal life; he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (John 3:36).

Peter also preaches salvation through faith and obedience:
“As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct, since it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’. And if you invoke as Father Him who judges each one impartially according to his DEEDS, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.” (1Peter 1:14-17).

Another name for salvation through faith and obedience is salvation through faith and works, because (good) works is simply obedience to His commandments.

 

[RogerDC]

Show me just one verse in the Bible where Paul specifically says we are saved by faith and works.

Paul doesn’t explicitly state that we are saved by “faith and works”, but it is clearly implied in his preaching. Works is simply obeying God’s commandments (which is also what “holiness” and “righteousness” mean), and Paul clearly teaches that we must obey God in order to be saved. For example,
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14);
and
“They profess to know God, by they deny Him by their deeds, they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed” (Titus 1:16).

We are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and obedience(as implied in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6). So when James 2:24 says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”, he is simply saying “a man is justified by obeying God and not by faith alone”. When James says “faith without works is dead”, he is simply saying “faith without obedience is dead”.

This same formula for salvation (faith and obedience) is found in Rev 14:12 says the same thing, when it describes the “saints” as “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (see also Rev 12:17). Faith and obedience is just another way of saying, faith and works.

Yes, those who have been saved through faith are "described" as those who "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments.

Rev 14:12 describes the “saints” as “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (see also Rev 12:17). To “KEEP the commandments of God” obviously means to “OBEY the commandments of God” (only a complete idiot would argue otherwise). In other words, Rev 14:12 preaches salvation through faith and obedience, otherwise known as salvation through faith and works.

Paul does not say that we are saved by grace through faith and keeping His commandments in Ephesians 2:8, 9

That’s true, but neither does Paul say we are saved by faith alone. 1Peter 3:21 says baptism “now saves you” - does that mean we are saved by baptism alone? Of course not.

You must consider all Paul preaching and not hang you hat on one verse and ignore the rest. When you consider all Paul’s preaching you find that he preaches salvation through faith and obedience, not salvation through faith alone.

The same message of salvation faith and obedience/works is preached not just by Paul - it is found in lots of other places in the NT (as I pointed out in an earlier post).

Sanctification has no bearing on justification.

Sanctification has everything to do with justification. Sanctification is obeying the commandments of God - that's how we become holy and righteous and how we abide in Christ. Obeying the commandments are the “works” by which we are justified, along with faith (James 2:24). Without sanctification, faith is dead (James 2:26).

 

[Angelina]

That is one of the huge lies the hyper-grace doctors have come up with. Those who fall away do so because of deception, not because of some stupid idea that they never had faith in the first place.

It is deception by men's doctrines that will cause many brethren to fall away in these last days, especially when the pseudo-Messiah shows up working great signs and wonders in playing God here on earth. Many brethren are going to fall away to worship that coming pseudo-Christ who comes first, thinking he is our Lord Jesus. That event we were specifically warned about by our Lord Jesus...

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ, or there'; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, he is in the desert'; go not forth: 'behold, he is in the secret chambers'; believe it not.
KJV

Totally agree with your point @Davy It reminds me of the parable of the Sower.

 

[RogerDC]

Rituals are the ties that bind you to a specific group. Without it, there is nothing there, because it says nothing about the actual contents of ones heart that only God knows in the end. You're just going through the motions, and nothing about it saves or brings you any closer to God.

As for me, I like to keep it simple: I believe the Catholic Church is the one, true Church that Christ founded. It is the very same Church described in the book of Acts and it has existed since then to this day. Whatever the CC practises and teaches, I accept as God's word, since the CC is the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). I don't doubt, I simply accept and obey. If you want to get close to God, the best way to do is join the Catholic Church.

 

[RogerDC]

If you believe that salvation is by works (at least in part) then you believe it’s earned (at least in part). Either we are saved by trusting or we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can’t have it both ways.

What do you mean by salvation by "works"? What "works" do you have in mind?

 

[Candidus]

Never said that, but grace did one thing it made allowance for the imperfect, seems everyone loves to boast of perfection and so have no need of grace.

It is by grace by faith....

Perhaps you can show us where this tripe is in Scripture!