The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

Look at the words highlighted in red
they are APPOSED
One says forever
One says ONLY as often as you eat (hence it is NOT forever)

I do not see why you do not see this MAJOR difference

First of all - 1 Cor. 11:26 doesn't say "ONLY".

Secondly - it is saying that every time we received the Lord in the Eucharist, we proclaim His death until He comes. As Catholics - we continually proclaim His death. In fact - you anti-Catholics ridicule us for it because we display the Crucifix in EVERY Catholic Church.

YOU don't get it because of your blind hatred.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I could care less what people thought. I care about hat the BIBLE says.
So no, I will not answer your question and could care less if you answer mine either
But in not answering, you in effect already have answered.

Thank you

It's funny how you don't see the blatant hypocrisy of your non-response.

Let's face it - the ONLY reason you won't answer my question is because you can't.
You can't explain why the ENTIRE Early Church believed in the Real Presence that YOU reject.

I'll answer yours, anyway: "Why do you insist on following men not the Bible?"
Answer: I follow what the Bible teaches about the Supreme earthly Authority of Christ's Church.
Here is what the Bible says about His Church . . .

- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they declared on earth would ALSO be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

To reject Christ's Church as YOU have is to reject CHRIST Himself and the ONE who sent Him.

Now - answer MY question:
Why do YOU suppose the Early Church was UNANIMOUS in its teaching of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First of all - 1 Cor. 11:26 doesn't say "ONLY".

Secondly - it is saying that every time we received the Lord in the Eucharist, we proclaim His death until He comes. As Catholics - we continually proclaim His death. In fact -

It does not matter if it says every time or not. You continue to eat food which causes according to Jesus said whoever eats of it will never die. And even after eating it you proclaim you can die..

you anti-Catholics ridicule us for it because we display the Crucifix in EVERY Catholic Church.

YOU don't get it because of your blind hatred.

This is your problem. I am not anti catholic. I am taking the word of God and interpreting it as it is written.

You can not see if because you think EVERYONE who disagrees with your doctrine HATES YOU

Get over your pride dude. You just proved here you are unteachable, It is good thing you do not represent all catholics. Because most I know can have a civil disussion without pulling out this strawman

Good day sir.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's funny how you don't see the blatant hypocrisy of your non-response.

Let's face it - the ONLY reason you won't answer my question is because you can't.
You can't explain why the ENTIRE Early Church believed in the Real Presence that YOU reject.

I'll answer yours, anyway: "Why do you insist on following men not the Bible?"
Answer: I follow what the Bible teaches about the Supreme earthly Authority of Christ's Church.
Here is what the Bible says about His Church . . .

- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- Jesus told the leaders of His Church that WHATEVER they declared on earth would ALSO be declared in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

To reject Christ's Church as YOU have is to reject CHRIST Himself and the ONE who sent Him.

Now - answer MY question:
Why do YOU suppose the Early Church was UNANIMOUS in its teaching of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist??

lol

You follow men

I will follow the word

Scripture in the NT already showed false teachers were taken over the churhc

I will not answer because IT DOES NOT MATTER

Your the one who thinks they have truth. yuo BLINDLY follow them

Well feel free

Again, Good day sir..

Take your pride and go find someone else to try to argue with, I am done

 

[BreadOfLife]

lol
You follow men I will follow the word
Scripture in the NT already showed false teachers were taken over the churhc
I will not answer because IT DOES NOT MATTER

Your the one who thinks they have truth. yuo BLINDLY follow them
Well feel free
Again, Good day sir..
Take your pride and go find someone else to try to argue with, I am done

WRONG.

It absolutely matters what the Early Church did and HOW they passed along the faith of the Apostles.
If it didn't matter - YOU wouldn't even have a Bible - the Canon of which was declared by the Early Church at the Council of Rome in 382 AD.

Your rejection of the teachings of the Early Church serve ONLY to provide you with an excuse for being Protestant.
Once again - you WON'T answer my question because it cuts to the very heart of the doubts you have as a renegade Christian.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It does not matter if it says every time or not. You continue to eat food which causes according to Jesus said whoever eats of it will never die. And even after eating it you proclaim you can die..
This is your problem. I am not anti catholic. I am taking the word of God and interpreting it as it is written.

You can not see if because you think EVERYONE who disagrees with your doctrine HATES YOU

Get over your pride dude. You just proved here you are unteachable, It is good thing you do not represent all catholics. Because most I know can have a civil disussion without pulling out this strawman

Good day sir.

Sooooo, of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - there are several that believe in the Real Presence. Did THEY "take the word of God and interpreting it as it is written" as YOU have?
OR are they all wrong because they don't agree with YOUR interpretations??

 

[Illuminator]

First

We are saved BECAUSE of redemption.

If we are not redeemed we are not saved.

so in essence they are interelated. ie, if we are redeemed we are saved, if we are not redeemed, we are still dead in our sins.

Instead of worrying about what people thought about in the 3rd or 16th century, lets try to figure out what they meant in the early 1st century, since that is when the bible was written. And we have those words in our hands to study? Do you not think that would be the smarter thing to do?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to write early Christian history (the first generation that proceeded the Apostles) based on the Bible alone. Some of the ante-Nicene Fathers were trained directly by the Apostles (such as Clement, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch and others). Their writings are not inspired, but they document beliefs and practices before the canon of the Bible, and before the Council of Nicae, and not all of it made it into the Bible, as the Bible itself clearly states. John 21:25 Some of their writings are magisterial, some are not. Is it smarter to dismiss or ignore them all together???

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to write early Christian history (the first generation that proceeded the Apostles) based on the Bible alone. Some of the ante-Nicene Fathers were trained directly by the Apostles (such as Clement, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch and others). Their writings are not inspired, but they document the beliefs and practices before the canon of the Bible. Some of their writings are magisterial, some are not. Is it smarter to dismiss or ignore them all together???

Thats what they say

But Paul told timothy he had enough knowledge with just the OT to be saved

Also. Peter called Pauls writings (plural) scripture So we can see Pauls epistles were considered scripture when peter wrote his words.

Now they can SAY they were trained by them, But I have no way to PROVE that this is true.

So I would rather stick to the inspired word.

 

[Illuminator]

Thats what they say

But Paul told timothy he had enough knowledge with just the OT to be saved

Also. Peter called Pauls writings (plural) scripture So we can see Pauls epistles were considered scripture when peter wrote his words.

Now they can SAY they were trained by them, But I have no way to PROVE that this is true.

So I would rather stick to the inspired word.

Then you have no way to prove the Early Church Fathers preserved, compiled and proclaimed the books of the Bible either. Your statement, underlined, is contradictory and illogical. This is why you are forced to fall back on Bible-origin fantasies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then you have no way to prove the Early Church Fathers preserved, compiled and proclaimed the books of the Bible either. Your statement, underlined, is contradictory and illogical. This is why you are forced to fall back on Bible-origin fantasies.

I trust God kept his word. and the word I have today came from God

I do not trust in men.

Everytime men get involved. It seems to fail

If that give you confidence. well all the power to you

 

[FollowHim]

You can call this life whatever you want

JESUS called it eternal. PAUL called it eternal

And they both said we have it when we TRUST or place TRUE saving faith in Christ.

so it does not matter what you call it, or how you think we get it What matters is what God says

I am sure you will agree with me in that matter

This is an interesting proposition, eternal means eternal, except eternal can mean more than just one thing.
Jesus uses metaphor all the time like the yeast of the pharisees.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3

Eternal life is not just life that goes on eternally but to know God and Jesus, ie communion.
It also relates to an open heart, to giving and receiving, to a quality of who we are, of being free because we are no longer under condemnation because we walk in the Spirit.

Now I know you have shown the inability to look at different perspectives, but why? Are they too challenging to you? I can cope with all your propositions because I understand them, as far as it can be seen. I suppose for you a mother works for the love of their children and their children work for the love of their parents. And from a perspective they do. Love is responded to with attention, with time, patience, empathy, support, affection, looking for the best.

I have met some people as parents have to learn how to express love from a book. For me I know my love and the love that flows to the kids. I remember what it was like to be young, and how support and attention does not have to be a great deal, but it makes all the difference. I wonder if you are a person who needs a book, and think I just pretend to know. It may well be part of this is a choice of the will, of sowing to the Spirit in Christ, of resting in Him, of knowing the cross and everything that comes from this. I know you know what I speak of, because you love Jesus, but I wonder why you fight to hard against this heartfelt expression. I ask because what I am is Gods creation, it is His work, His life, His love and did not choose this, I followed and He led and worked. Praise the Lord. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

First of all - 1 Cor. 11:26 doesn't say "ONLY".

Secondly - it is saying that every time we received the Lord in the Eucharist, we proclaim His death until He comes. As Catholics - we continually proclaim His death. In fact - you anti-Catholics ridicule us for it because we display the Crucifix in EVERY Catholic Church.

YOU don't get it because of your blind hatred.

I get it. And I know people who hate, and have killed. On the inside of the faith my heart speaks of too many issues. For me the obvious is idolatry of approach. Everything that detracts from Jesus and our walk can become idolatry. And in truth the hatred towards believers like me historically has been intense.

But if you know Jesus, his death and resurrection walking by faith in His ways, Amen. God bless you.

 

[Dcopymope]

I trust God kept his word. and the word I have today came from God

I do not trust in men.

Everytime men get involved. It seems to fail

If that give you confidence. well all the power to you

Simply believing that God would preserve his word is not enough for some people. That tells me all I need to know about them and their so called "faith" in God.

 

[Davy]

Totally agree with your point @Davy It reminds me of the parable of the Sower.

I realize God has blinded many brethren away from this coming event at the end. It could be that's so they won't be held ultimately accountable, and will be saved in the millennium. At least, that's my hope, as Apostle Paul had hope also that there would be both a resurrection of the Just and the unjust (Acts 24:15).

 

[Candidus]

Thats your problem, Everything is about what men say to you. What the bible says seems to come second in your view

Predestination is a term used in the bible. ​

In fact, predestination it is only used 5 times in the Bible, there is not a singular instance where the word "predestination" is used in the context of the salvation of any individual.​

It does not matter if I say it is his desire or it is his will. It still means the same

And what is Gods desire (will)

​

It does matter in Greek and in English. God's will is not God's decree.

All who see and believe will have eternal life and will be risen

so if this is Gods will. Do you not think he will carry it out?

Nope! Because it is not God's decree, it is His desire. God is not willing that any should perish... which is stated more emphatically than John 6.
No, God will not carry it out, His desire is not a decree... but that doesn't change His will.

"And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day." John 6:39.

Judas was "given" to Jesus. It is the Father's will that Jesus would lose nothing... which included Judas. John 17:12 Jesus said, "those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition," direct proof that in spite of the desire of God that "this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing" there was at least one of the chosen twelve that was!

You cannot lose what you never had. You cannot fall from a position you were never in. “That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:25.

Ahh, SO you admit, it is YOUR interpretation

John said I can KNOW I HAVE eternal life

According to you. John is a liar, because that is impossible.

It's not my interpretation, it's Scripture!

Let's look at John and Eternal life:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 Jn. 5:13.

Does this contradict the conditions that John appends to having Eternal Life in his Gospel? No!

"These things have I written unto you that believe [present tense] on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe [present tense]on the name of the Son of God." Knowing that you have eternal life is based upon a present tense faith.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn. 3:15-16.

"That whosoever believeth [present tense] in him should not perish, but have eternal life." What is the condition that Jesus said? Can you have Eternal Life if the condition does not exist?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth [present tense] in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." What condition does God place on having Eternal Life?

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" Jn. 3:36.
​

"He that believeth [present tense] on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth [present tense] not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." What kind of belief? What kind of belief does Jesus say that you will not see life? Having or not having Eternal Life is contingent upon what belief/faith you have in the moment (present tense).

John is no liar and it is not MY interpretation. It is what John says that Jesus said. To say that John writes that Jesus gives a person Eternal Life apart from a present tense faith, is to call them both liars.

 

[RogerDC]

Abraham first believed God and was justified by God who knows his heart.

God knew Abraham’s heart only after he was tested:
”After these things, God tested Abraham … Do not lay you hand on the lad or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God” (Genesis 22:1-12).

God tests the faith of all of us all in the same He tested Abraham - but our obedience to his commandments - otherwise known as our "works".

Years later, his faith grew to such an extent that his actions caught up with his faith in being willing to sacrifice his son.

James 2 says Abraham was justified by his works. We are justified (and therefore saved) by our works and not by our faith alone (James 2:24)

Read further …
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

What’s your point? In 1Cor 6:9-11, Paul warns believers - who had repented of their former sins and and were therebty sanctified and justified by their works of repentance - that if they fall back into their past sins they will not inherit the kingdom of God. So a believer must obey God and avoid serious sin if he is to inherit the kingdom of God - which means salvation depends not only on faith, but also on obedience, which is “works”. Therefore Paul is preaching salvation through faith and works.

Good works would be anything a man trusts in order to win favor with God outside of faith in His Son.

Sorry, but that tells me nothing. I have absolutely no idea what you mean when you define “good works” as “anything a man trusts in order to win favor with God outside of faith in His Son”. In order to answer your question - How many works does one need to do in order to be saved? - I need to what you mean by “good works”. James 2:21 says Abraham was “justified by works, when he offered his son upon the altar”. According to you, when Abraham obeyed God, this qualifies as “anything a man trusts in order to win favor with God outside of faith”. Like I said, I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[RogerDC]

You want to put yourself under law and not under grace. I do not know what to say. other than I am sad

Grace doesn’t mean you are free to sin. If you are not free to sin, you are under law.

Paul says “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” (Romans 3:31). What is this ‘law” that Paul says believers “uphold”?

Paul says, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can one who died to sin still live in it? ... Let not sin then reign in your mortal bodies …” (Romans 6). So grace doesn’t mean you are free to sin. If you are not free to sin, you are under law. Simple logic, my friend.

 

[RogerDC]

your hoping you attain the righteousness you think is required to be saved

You did well to mention hope - our salvation is described as a ‘hope” (ie, not a certainty) is at least twenty places in the NT.

As for attaining “righteousness”, yes that is necessary for salvation - as Paul says, “He who through faith is righteous shall live” (Romans 1:17) .

The “saints” are “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12) - salvation through faith and works, in other words. Meeting these requirements - faith and obedience/works - are how a believer becomes “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4).

Paul clearly warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God - in other words, righteous is required for salvation.

If you don’t strive to obey God’s commandments and remain a slave to sin, you will not be saved - so says Paul:
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

Those who don’t keep His commandments (aka “works”) don’t know Christ, and won’t be saved - so says John:
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him …” (1John 2:3-5).

I know I have failed and will never attain that requirement …. in my gospel I am unable to boast because it is not of my works, but of God’s grace

Boasting is not part of my gospel either. My salvation is totally depend on God’s mercy and judgement - I cannot save myself. I know full well that I am a sinner and that my attempts to obey God are imperfect, so what do I have to boast about?

my faith is totally on God keeping his promises

God promises to save those who obey Him, which is salvation through faith and righteousness (aka, faith and works).

 

[prism]

God knew Abraham’s heart only after he was tested:

I’ll only go this far, because if you don’t get this point then your god is too small...


Psalm 139:1-4 ESV
[1] O LORD, you have searched me and known me! [2] You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. [3] You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. [4] Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

1 John 3:20 ESV
[20] for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.


1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV
[9] "And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.


Hebrews 4:12 ESV
[12] For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This is ridiculous going any further. We appear to have two different Gods.
Your god only knows someone’s heart after they have been tested (your words). My God knows our hearts and thoughts from the womb. Even from eternity. I’m moving on.

 

[RogerDC]

The Eucharist view changes this focus into a magic moment. Rather than deal with issues, get an innoculation against the consequences. Just not God's way. It becomes a recreation of the temple and sacrifices.

Jesus said He would not change one little bit of the law.