The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[RogerDC]

If we HAVE IT, It can NOT BE LOST

You don't have it yet. God tests your faith until the end and after that you will be judged by Christ and hopefully saved. You can't prove that you are already saved, so it's pointless to claim that you are. The Christians in Matt 7: 21-23 assumed they were saved too, but Jesus rejected them on Judgement Day.

Scripture describes salvation as a "hope" in all least twenty verses in the NT, so your claim that you are already "saved" contradicts every one of those "hope" verses.

 

[RogerDC]

You can call this life whatever you want

JESUS called it eternal. PAUL called it eternal

Really? You claim to have "eternal life" ... but you will most certainly die? How does that work? Do you think "eternal life" might just refer to what (hopefully) happens after death … IF you are granted salvation?

Why are fundamentalists incapable of understanding that some words in the Bible are not meant to read in a literal sense? Are they really that clueless?

 

[RogerDC]

I could care less what people thought. I care about hat the BIBLE says.

Good for you, brother! Why bother with reality when you can live in a cosy bubble of ignorance and delusion?

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus said He would not change one little bit of the law.

You still dont get it do you,

Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

you know this bit

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

but if you insist one the law go become an SDA and you can along with them be judged by it and die in your sin, if that is what you wish.

 

[marksman]

I beg to differ . . .

Matt. 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

No comment.

 

[FollowHim]

Jesus said He would not change one little bit of the law.

Until everything is fulfilled. Clearly the apostles declared the law did not apply to believers, ie a very small number of principles remained.
Paul declared we are free of Sabbath rest, even food sacrificed to idols.

Paul talked of the law of Christ and slaves to righteousness, which is love of God and ones neighbour. Paul also held believers were Holy, temples of the Holy Spirit. This is a vast shift from being a Jew. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

If it can be stopped. IT IS NOT ETERNAL

If it can be stopped IT IS CONDITIONAL

WHy can people not see this.

ps. Yes it is a thing.. It is called a gift. A gift is a thing

"the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life in Jesu"

I have noticed a conditional walk with Jesus is resisted. Fear and insecurity seems to be the issue.
When we get married we enter a covenant which can be broken. We know the relationship stands on this trust yet we still enter it. The power of this love is overcoming, overcoming our weaknesses and failures.

How is it marriage is compared to the church and Christ? The covenant can be adulterous as Israel was.

Each day I live because my body keeps working, a condition of life, yet I do not live in fear. Jesus offers us life in Him, a real experience, a real walk, an eternal reality, which is so privileged we should just be rejoicing. And to reject Him, such an issue, such a denial of the King, how could such as these find mercy again? It is what Hebrews is arguing, so high are we brought and so far we can fall.

Ironically if faith is sinners covered with no power to overcome, falling away is just standing still. God bless you.

 

[charity]

Subject heading:- 'The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever'

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Ephesian 2:8-10)

Hello @Zachery,

How can you speak in terms of the 'grace', or 'unmerited favour,' of God as - 'myth?

It would seem that you fail to acknowledge that when the believer believes on the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, he is SEALED. This is spoken of in Scripture in Ephesians 1:13, and Ephesians 4:30, and by Paul of himself and his fellow-workers in 1 Corinthians 1:22:-

'That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:12-14)

'And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.'
(Eph 4:30)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[BreadOfLife]

I get it. And I know people who hate, and have killed. On the inside of the faith my heart speaks of too many issues. For me the obvious is idolatry of approach. Everything that detracts from Jesus and our walk can become idolatry. And in truth the hatred towards believers like me historically has been intense.

But if you know Jesus, his death and resurrection walking by faith in His ways, Amen. God bless you.

I haven't expressed any "hatred" of you at all.
My entire line of discussion has been a defense of the truth.

You ARE right that anything that detracts from Christ can become a source of idolatry. That is PRECISELY what the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years. EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church believes in and teaches - which includes ALL practices, Marian apparitions, rituals, etc - ALL point to Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No comment.

No kidding.

Matt. 16:18 is a knockout punch for those, like YOU who say that Church is a "man-made" institution.

 

[FollowHim]

I haven't expressed any "hatred" of you at all.
My entire line of discussion has been a defense of the truth.

You ARE right that anything that detracts from Christ can become a source of idolatry. That is PRECISELY what the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years. EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church believes in and teaches - which includes ALL practices, Marian apparitions, rituals, etc - ALL point to Christ.

You raised the question of hatred, which I know all too well is a poison to our souls.

I wish your aspirations worked out to a reality. It is not what I see or have experienced.
It is not unreasonable that the catholic church has actually added to the faith and created lots of extra burdens that are not necessary and are a distraction to following Jesus.

The essence of our differences comes down to church and state. Has the church a right to exercise real authority over civil affairs and literally rule areas. I would hold no, this leads to the confusion between ruling and personal faith. All organisations which invest finance into the leaders often ends up getting corrupted, because the amounts are vast in comparison to what is actually going on.

What I do is follow Jesus and leave others to what God convicts them to do. God bless you

 

[BreadOfLife]

You raised the question of hatred, which I know all too well is a poison to our souls.

I wish your aspirations worked out to a reality. It is not what I see or have experienced.
It is not unreasonable that the catholic church has actually added to the faith and created lots of extra burdens that are not necessary and are a distraction to following Jesus.

The essence of our differences comes down to church and state. Has the church a right to exercise real authority over civil affairs and literally rule areas. I would hold no, this leads to the confusion between ruling and personal faith. All organisations which invest finance into the leaders often ends up getting corrupted, because the amounts are vast in comparison to what is actually going on.

What I do is follow Jesus and leave others to what God convicts them to do. God bless you

First of all - your argument about "Church ad state" is complete nonsense.
This is a thing of the PAST. the Church doesn't exercise any power over state governments and kingdoms.

As for anti-Catholic "hatred" - this is the ONLY motivation I can discern from those who have to lie and make up falsehoods to make their case against the Church. If there is another motivation for the lies- please enlighten me.

Finally - what you fail to understand about the things that YOU say the Church has "added" that detract from Christ - NAME one.
They ALL point to Christ. Every prayer, every devotion, every practice, every ritual - ALL point to Christ.

YOUR turn . . .

 

[FollowHim]

A realisation came to me, how some can lie so easily to themselves.

All sins are equal, because the result of sin in death. Except Peter says we can pray for those who sin, and their sins will be forgiven, but not for sins that lead to death, ie murder.

I am discouraged when people claim to know Jesus yet deny His word and walking in His ways.
Now one contributor expressed the notion that making someone look bad was in somehow disrespectful to the Lord.
But if they are aware they could look bad for the position they are arguing for they know it is actually bad.
So a person who says I love Jesus, murders someone, does not repent, curses God, is saved.

Clearly this would be the Kingdom of forced conversions, a heaven of sinners railing against God to His face.
So salvation has to exist on a living walk with Jesus, in love and truth, no fake, no pretend, no hiding.

So the block in such folk has to be truly they do not know Jesus. How could one do the opposite of the one who one claims to love and follow, and not open oneself up to judgement. Gods promises are for His people who believe in Him and obey His commands. By definition they listen to His voice and follow Him. That is how you can tell who they are. So if someone confesses faith and then leaves to life a life of sin, whatever they were before, they are now lost.

But the real problem is not those who deny the faith, but claim the faith and live in sin. Paul said we should not even eat with them, because they are cast out of the body of Christ. And this stuff is childs play, milk of the faith, not even the difficult part, to those who desire purity and truth in Christ. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

First of all - your argument about "Church ad state" is complete nonsense.
This is a thing of the PAST. the Church doesn't exercise any power over state governments and kingdoms.

As for anti-Catholic "hatred" - this is the ONLY motivation I can discern from those who have to lie and make up falsehoods to make their case against the Church. If there is another motivation for the lies- please enlighten me.

Finally - what you fail to understand about the things that YOU say the Church has "added" that detract from Christ - NAME one.
They ALL point to Christ. Every prayer, every devotion, every practice, every ritual - ALL point to Christ.

YOUR turn . . .

I do not lie. I fellowship with a lot of ex-Catholics in a baptist church. We just meet to sing, praise the Lord and learn from Him through His word and fellowship. We belong to a fellowship of believers. And that is it.

If you are happy to be a catholic, amen. I just share my heart and what speaks to me. I know many people struggle in many different traditions and fellowships, so I do not want to judge, but I will share my perspective on truths like the Holy Spirit, walking in faith, the teachers and pastors of churches.

If you are walking with Christ in His ways, amen. Our experience is people find the Lord ministering to them through our fellowship, so I just praise the Lord for this blessing. Jesus spoke to me about normal life and being in the world and not of it. Catholicism appears to be a catholic before anything else, and for truth, the "church", to get things right. In this tradition I would not have the bible in english, or be allowed to read and watch so much good things, and see the Lord blessing through my life in the wonder of His revelation. I do not need to know more than this to know what your tradition means, God bless you

 

[RogerDC]

The Eucharist view changes this focus into a magic moment. Rather than deal with issues, get an innoculation against the consequences. Just not God's way. It becomes a recreation of the temple and sacrifices. I see why some take mass each day. The long life pill.

My understanding is that the Catholic Church teaches that the sacrifice of the Mass and the sacrifice of Jesus are all ONE sacrifice. Jesus is not sacrificed over and over again in the Mass.

 

[marksman]

Until everything is fulfilled. Clearly the apostles declared the law did not apply to believers, ie a very small number of principles remained.
Paul declared we are free of Sabbath rest, even food sacrificed to idols.

Paul talked of the law of Christ and slaves to righteousness, which is love of God and ones neighbour. Paul also held believers were Holy, temples of the Holy Spirit. This is a vast shift from being a Jew. God bless you.

And yet until Acts 15 it did.

 

[marksman]

No kidding.

Matt. 16:18 is a knockout punch for those, like YOU who say that Church is a "man-made" institution.

No comment.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not lie. I fellowship with a lot of ex-Catholics in a baptist church. We just meet to sing, praise the Lord and learn from Him through His word and fellowship. We belong to a fellowship of believers. And that is it.

If you are happy to be a catholic, amen. I just share my heart and what speaks to me. I know many people struggle in many different traditions and fellowships, so I do not want to judge, but I will share my perspective on truths like the Holy Spirit, walking in faith, the teachers and pastors of churches.

If you are walking with Christ in His ways, amen. Our experience is people find the Lord ministering to them through our fellowship, so I just praise the Lord for this blessing. Jesus spoke to me about normal life and being in the world and not of it. Catholicism appears to be a catholic before anything else, and for truth, the "church", to get things right. In this tradition I would not have the bible in english, or be allowed to read and watch so much good things, and see the Lord blessing through my life in the wonder of His revelation. I do not need to know more than this to know what your tradition means, God bless you

Well - you just claimed that you don't lie - then you follow it up with another LIE.

The idea that you wouldn't have the Bible in English if not for Protestantism is nonsense. There were MANY books of the Bible translated into English BEFORE the KJV. The Church was never against translating into other languages. This is an historically-bankrupt, anti-Catholic lie.
The Church forbade private translations because of the mess is was causing. There were several attempts to privately translate the Bible which ended up in heretical versions being created.

Do me a favor - stick to the facts - and you won't have to be accused of lying anymore . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No comment.

No surprise . . .

 

[charity]

Really? You claim to have "eternal life" ... but you will most certainly die? How does that work? Do you think "eternal life" might just refer to what (hopefully) happens after death … IF you are granted salvation?

Why are fundamentalists incapable of understanding that some words in the Bible are not meant to read in a literal sense? Are they really that clueless?

'For who maketh thee to differ from another?
and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?
now if thou didst receive it,
why dost thou glory,
as if thou hadst not received it?'
(1 Corinthians 4:7)

Hello @RogerDC,

Why are you being so hostile in your approach to @Eternally Grateful?

* I would like to consider a point you made to him, in which you said in reply#3941:- 'Scripture describes salvation as a "hope" in all least twenty verses in the NT, so your claim that you are already "saved" contradicts every one of those "hope" verses.'

* There are a number of Hebrew words translated 'Hope' in the Old Testament, but there is but one basic Greek word so translated in the New Testament. Hope in the New Testament is very often linked to a promise made: so that Hope looks to the fulfilment of a promise. ' Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen' (Hebrews 11:1).

* Our faith rests on the promises of God, therefore they are sure and certain. I have been promised life through His (Christ's) name. Therefore there is no element of doubt in my mind that I will receive it, for it rests on a promise that God has made: Whose promises are 'Yea' and 'Amen'; given by a God who is all powerful, and Who never lies. Yes! Salvation is also sure on that same principle, the believer having been 'sealed' with that Holy Spirit of promise.

'In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Ephesians 1:13)

* The Believer is told assuredly that '... ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.' (Co.l 3:3-4) . I believe this, it is my hope, and there is nothing unsure or uncertain about it.

* Death for the believer, by God's reckoning, is as a 'sleep': for the believer has the sure hope of resurrection life, in Christ Jesus his Lord and Saviour.

* I am trusting in God to keep His promises, made in Christ Jesus His Beloved Son.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris