"I don't like even being around them"

[Justadude]

You accuse me of primarily being only interested in sharing my beliefs experiences on a Christian forum; so yes I admit I like to share with those who have the same or similar beliefs and experiences.

You realize this sub-forum is labeled "NonChristian Forums", right?

I like the fellowship too and don't understand why a non-Christian would want to share non-Christian views unless it is to disrupt.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of the non-Christian section of this forum. Even this sub-sub forum is titled "inter-faith discussion", which gave me the impression that folks like me would be able to share our views as well. But if what you say is correct, the real purpose is actually to provide a venue for Christians to preach to non-Christians, with the expectation that non-Christians would mostly just listen and not speak.

It is obvious that you don't like hearing from us the truth that you were brought up with so perhaps some Christian hurt you badly in the past.

No, I've never been hurt by any Christian.

 

[Justadude]

As a "once upon a time" Christian

I've never been a Christian.

don't you understand that once one believes they have found the Truth that, they stop endlessly looking here, there and everywhere! Especially if a Christian. Christians are to have no other gods before them... It's like Lot's wife looking back. All of us have had differing experiences...from the world and from our new births. That's why I see Him as being so very personal, nobody else can really appeal to a non-Christian in the same way. Okay...I'm babbling.

Sure, I understand that. But I wasn't expecting anyone to be "seeking". I was hoping some people would be able to at least try and see things from another POV, or merely listen to another POV. Obviously I was mistaken.

 

[Nancy]

I've never been a Christian.


Sure, I understand that. But I wasn't expecting anyone to be "seeking". I was hoping some people would be able to at least try and see things from another POV, or merely listen to another POV. Obviously I was mistaken.

Well Dude, (I'm sorry, I thought you once were a Christian...but then just cause you are brought up going to that building each week can never make someone a Christian, lol)
As I can only speak for myself, I DID look into all the Eastern religions while seeking so...I have a good idea what is out there and not a thing has effected me as truth...but the Word/Bible.
I treat all peoples of faith with respect and grew to love several of the other hospital workers who were either Hindi or Muslim. They have never asked me about my faith but they knew I was a Christian as everyone else knew. We treated each other with a mutual respect and I prayed for them back then. One of my Muslim co-workers, a very sweet and beautiful young girl about maybe 19 yrs. old, came in crying one day, she told me that her parents are forcing her to go back to their home country (don't remember which one, also, her father was a doctor in the hospital) to be married to someone she never met. She had met an American boy while here and was in pieces about it all...I really felt bad for her and was so grateful to be born in the US! Okay, rambling again
We will all be standing alone, before His judgement seat and nobody can say that "well, my pastor said..." on and on, or that other Christians are all hypocrites...I find no difference in those who are hypocrites inside or outside the Church, none at all. It is just spotlighted on the Church because of contrast of what they should be like. Nobody will EVER find a Church without Hypocrites IMHO.
I do hope you find peace, if nothing but for your Avatar

 

[Justadude]

Well Dude, (I'm sorry, I thought you once were a Christian...but then just cause you are brought up going to that building each week can never make someone a Christian, lol)

No worries.

As I can only speak for myself, I DID look into all the Eastern religions while seeking so...I have a good idea what is out there and not a thing has effected me as truth...but the Word/Bible.

I'm not asking or expecting anyone to look into any other religion. I was hoping some folks would be willing to at least try and understand how some of what they say seems from my perspective, even if they don't agree with it. But like I said, that obviously was a mistake on my part.

Someone once explained to me that most religious people will never do anything like that, not because they're incapable, but because they're worried about the risks (likely subconsciously so). If they started to understand my POV, that risks my POV potentially making sense, which could possibly lead to them questioning some aspects of their own faith, which risks a crisis of faith. So it's much safer to avoid that whole thing altogether.

I treat all peoples of faith with respect and grew to love several of the other hospital workers who were either Hindi or Muslim. They have never asked me about my faith but they knew I was a Christian as everyone else knew. We treated each other with a mutual respect and I prayed for them back then. One of my Muslim co-workers, a very sweet and beautiful young girl about maybe 19 yrs. old, came in crying one day, she told me that her parents are forcing her to go back to their home country (don't remember which one, also, her father was a doctor in the hospital) to be married to someone she never met. She had met an American boy while here and was in pieces about it all...I really felt bad for her and was so grateful to be born in the US! Okay, rambling again
We will all be standing alone, before His judgement seat and nobody can say that "well, my pastor said..." on and on, or that other Christians are all hypocrites...I find no difference in those who are hypocrites inside or outside the Church, none at all. It is just spotlighted on the Church because of contrast of what they should be like. Nobody will EVER find a Church without Hypocrites IMHO.
I do hope you find peace, if nothing but for your Avatar

Thank you.

 

[amadeus]

It's a (failed) attempt on my part to try and get folks like you to see your claims about your religious experiences from a different perspective. But as you and @amadeus have made clear to me, much like some of my Christian friends and family members you are primarily interested in sharing your beliefs and experiences with me, but not at all interested in hearing my POV on those beliefs and experiences.

Without a doubt while I was willing to listen because it was the polite thing to do, essentially there is nothing you could share that I have not heard before. You may say the same about what I have shared with you, but you chose to visit me effectively on my turf, did you not?

As Solomon wrote, in the world of men there is nothing new under the sun, but beyond the world of men, a place where you have apparently never been there is something better.
I have been in your world, but you on the other hand have never been where I am with God. You can deny the possibility, but some of us cannot truthfully do that.

 

[Justadude]

Without a doubt while I was willing to listen because it was the polite thing to do, essentially there is nothing you could share that I have not heard before. You may say the same about what I have shared with you, but you chose to visit me effectively on my turf, did you not?

Yeah, I've definitely gotten the message that even the "non-christian forums" are primarily intended as a place for Christians to preach to non-Christians, with no expectation of ever listening to them.

IOW, the "general discussions" and "inter-faith discussion" sub-forums are misnamed, since there is no expectations for actual discussion. It would be more appropriate to put them together under the label "Church for Non-Christians".

 

[marksman]

In another thread, @Ezra noticed that I am an agnostic and said "i see you have agnostic beside your faith.. conversation ended". Apparently the mere fact that I'm not a Christian is justification enough to not talk to me. That put me in mind of something similar that happened a couple of years ago.

As I've described many times here, pretty much all my friends are Christians, some even are full-time employees of a local church. We became friends through our kids (they're all about the same age) and school.

For years we all would go camping together, sometimes at the church's campground and other times at a national forest campground....but always next to a lake. As our kids have grown older the tradition has waned a bit, but we try to go whenever we can. At the last camping trip, one of my friends invited his sister and brother-in-law. I'd never met them before, but they seemed like nice enough people to me....at first.

One day all the parents were floating in the bay on a large inflatable raft, just hanging out and chatting. I can't recall exactly what led the conversation towards non-Christians, but at one point my friend's sister says rather loudly "I can't stand non-Christians! I don't want them in my house, I don't want them around my kids...I don't even like being around them!!"

Now, everyone else (besides her husband) on that raft knew I was a non-Christian, so there was an immediate period of very awkward silence. I just sat there and turned my gaze towards the mountains and smiled and eventually the conversation moved to something else. But for the rest of the trip, there was an obvious tension as every once in awhile she would again say something about non-Christians. I don't know if any of my friends ever said anything to her about my lack of faith, but I didn't. I'd just met her and didn't feel like I should start up with her on what was otherwise a very enjoyable trip. So as usual I just spoke to her in pleasantries and left it at that.

Anyways, Ezra's comment earlier today reminded me of that day at the lake and how weird her statements seemed. What's with some Christians and this apparent fear of being around or.......GASP......talking to a non-Christian? Are they afraid I'm going to infect them with critical thinking and skepticism? Are they worried they might find out I'm a pleasant person who's fun to be around? Or maybe they think I've got some sort of demon that might jump from my body to theirs?

Perhaps it is the trousers you wear? I quite like them.

 

[Cristo Rei]

It wasn't an explosion, it was an expansion. Those are quite different things.

I used the term explosion to illustrate the watchmaker analogy. I'll just re word it. There was nothing, then an event happened "the big bang" and now there is a functioning Swiss watch

It's important to keep in mind that most of this subject is based in mathematical models and how the physicists' goal is to find a way for their math to harmonize. So most of this comes down to "does the math work".

There is no math confirming that matter can come from nothing.

That's not my understanding of the situation. I'd understood it as the multiverse was a way to make the math work (and it did), but the problem was there's no way to test it in the real world.

Uh uh, sorry. Maybe what u mean is that its possible according to the math.
There are a lot of possibilities according to the math.
That was their finding. It just opened up a huge realm of possibilities.

I think you have seriously misunderstood both.

A harsh judgement given;

The two claims u made, that maths can account for matter and multiverses, are both false

About ToE u said "But if you're looking for a 100% complete narrative of evolutionary history from the first cells all the way through animals like we have today, that's not going to happen."
Agreed

U said engineering is precise and constant and biology is sometimes and possibly
Also agreed

I would say u don't understand much astrophysics and cosmology and i don't understand much biology. But we both know these standards of evidence which is why I understand your point of view. So I'm a little surprised and disappointed that u don't seem to understand mine now. But anyway

 

[Justadude]

There is no math confirming that matter can come from nothing.

I'm content to let the professionals determine that.

Uh uh, sorry. Maybe what u mean is that its possible according to the math.

That's exactly what I meant.

A harsh judgement given

Not really. That's okay though, I don't think anyone expects you to have expert-level knowledge of both evolutionary biology and big bang cosmology. Shoot, I don't expect you to have expert-level knowledge in either.

The two claims u made, that maths can account for matter and multiverses, are both false

Again, I'll let the professionals determine what they can or can't do.

I would say u don't understand much astrophysics and cosmology and i don't understand much biology. But we both know these standards of evidence which is why I understand your point of view.

Okay.

So I'm a little surprised and disappointed that u don't seem to understand mine now. But anyway

What don't you think I'm understanding?

 

[Cristo Rei]

The two claims u made, that maths can account for matter and multiverses, are both false

Again, I'll let the professionals determine what they can or can't do.

The pros have determined it. Maths doesn't support the multiverse or the creation of matter, it doesn't even support the big bang
If there is a pro that claims that maths can prove those things then id like to read about it

 

[Justadude]

The pros have determined it. Maths doesn't support the multiverse or the creation of matter, it doesn't even support the big bang
If there is a pro that claims that maths can prove those things then id like to read about it

https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Design-Stephen-Hawking/dp/055338466X

 

[Cristo Rei]

https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Design-Stephen-Hawking/dp/055338466X

That book is Stephen Hawking using quantum theory to explain things which is theoretical physics

The fact is that explaining where matter came from is one of the biggest challenges.
And the multiverse only has about a 50% consensus, isn't not even a scientific theory

 

[Justadude]

That book is Stephen Hawking using quantum theory to explain things which is theoretical physics

The fact is that explaining where matter came from is one of the biggest challenges.
And the multiverse only has about a 50% consensus, isn't not even a scientific theory

This is a good example of why I stopped discussing and debating science with Christians in online forums. You said if there was a scientist who showed the math behind the big bang and multiverse, you'd like to read it. I found one for you. Now you make it clear you have no intention of reading it. IOW, I just wasted my time.

I can't tell you how many times a Christian would do something like that, where they would say "show me where any scientist has ever explained X", but after I go through the trouble of finding and posting exactly what they asked for, they just wave it away without even bothering to look. It indicates to me that they weren't asking in good faith, but instead were thinking they had me stumped. Once they realized I wasn't stumped, they just moved on.

Please don't waste my time like that any more. If you aren't going to read the material, don't ask me to find it for you.

 

[Cristo Rei]

This is a good example of why I stopped discussing and debating science with Christians in online forums. You said if there was a scientist who showed the math behind the big bang and multiverse, you'd like to read it. I found one for you. Now you make it clear you have no intention of reading it. IOW, I just wasted my time.

I can't tell you how many times a Christian would do something like that, where they would say "show me where any scientist has ever explained X", but after I go through the trouble of finding and posting exactly what they asked for, they just wave it away without even bothering to look. It indicates to me that they weren't asking in good faith, but instead were thinking they had me stumped. Once they realized I wasn't stumped, they just moved on.

Please don't waste my time like that any more. If you aren't going to read the material, don't ask me to find it for you.

Mate, read the blurb... It specifically says they use quantum theory in that book
So, like i said, u won't find anyone claiming to have mathematical evidence
Sorry if u wasted ur time trying to find something but I did tell u

 

[Philip James]

I don't deny that gods could possibly exist. But since no one can say exactly what a "god" is, doesn't that render the question of their existence meaningless?

Hello justadude,

'exactly' is a pretty high standard. How about just a reasonable argument that there must be a 'first cause' to the universe?

Have you read St. Thomas Aquinas? (Its on my to do list lol).

I think this has the argument: The First Cause Argument

Faith and reason go hand in hand.

Peace be with you!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

In another thread, @Ezra noticed that I am an agnostic and said "i see you have agnostic beside your faith.. conversation ended". Apparently the mere fact that I'm not a Christian is justification enough to not talk to me. That put me in mind of something similar that happened a couple of years ago.

As I've described many times here, pretty much all my friends are Christians, some even are full-time employees of a local church. We became friends through our kids (they're all about the same age) and school.

For years we all would go camping together, sometimes at the church's campground and other times at a national forest campground....but always next to a lake. As our kids have grown older the tradition has waned a bit, but we try to go whenever we can. At the last camping trip, one of my friends invited his sister and brother-in-law. I'd never met them before, but they seemed like nice enough people to me....at first.

One day all the parents were floating in the bay on a large inflatable raft, just hanging out and chatting. I can't recall exactly what led the conversation towards non-Christians, but at one point my friend's sister says rather loudly "I can't stand non-Christians! I don't want them in my house, I don't want them around my kids...I don't even like being around them!!"

Now, everyone else (besides her husband) on that raft knew I was a non-Christian, so there was an immediate period of very awkward silence. I just sat there and turned my gaze towards the mountains and smiled and eventually the conversation moved to something else. But for the rest of the trip, there was an obvious tension as every once in awhile she would again say something about non-Christians. I don't know if any of my friends ever said anything to her about my lack of faith, but I didn't. I'd just met her and didn't feel like I should start up with her on what was otherwise a very enjoyable trip. So as usual I just spoke to her in pleasantries and left it at that.

Anyways, Ezra's comment earlier today reminded me of that day at the lake and how weird her statements seemed. What's with some Christians and this apparent fear of being around or.......GASP......talking to a non-Christian? Are they afraid I'm going to infect them with critical thinking and skepticism? Are they worried they might find out I'm a pleasant person who's fun to be around? Or maybe they think I've got some sort of demon that might jump from my body to theirs?

You are an idiot ! that's why . a simpleton ! a fool ! or just a clown ! that's the perception, someone who is ignorant of the reality, is what most will think that you are and they will just brush you off as a pain.
But you may be right from your perspective because you clearly do not understand and are not here to try and be a pain, but are just seeking to understand, well that's fine, but do you have an open mind or a closed one.
Sure you make some true points of the religious ? as their are many religious nuts about that are off with the pixies.
But you know not the Holy Spirit, for if you did understand this point you would not be an Agnostic, it's as simple as that.
As to your critical thinking, well any worthy Christen is critical in subjects and sceptical as well on some points you will find.

If you knew your trade and someone a novice or clown came claiming nonsense to one as such, sure you will be brushed off. I got such people like that who looked up the Net for say 2hr and claimed to know more about my Trade than I did, that I started in from 1971 so I have some idiot trying to tell me how to do my Trade and will not listen to a word that I say, yet will ask some life long dole bludger dope addict what does he think with reverence so as not to offend him. the masses have learned that ignorance by what ? Social engineering.

 

[Willie T]

You are an idiot ! that's why . a simpleton ! a fool ! or just a clown ! that's the perception, someone who is ignorant of the reality, is what most will think that you are and they will just brush you off as a pain.
But you may be right from your perspective because you clearly do not understand and are not here to try and be a pain, but are just seeking to understand, well that's fine, but do you have an open mind or a closed one.
Sure you make some true points of the religious ? as their are many religious nuts about that are off with the pixies.
But you know not the Holy Spirit, for if you did understand this point you would not be an Agnostic, it's as simple as that.
As to your critical thinking, well any worthy Christen is critical in subjects and sceptical as well on some points you will find.

If you knew your trade and someone a novice or clown came claiming nonsense to one as such, sure you will be brushed off. I got such people like that who looked up the Net for say 2hr and claimed to know more about my Trade than I did, that I started in from 1971 so I have some idiot trying to tell me how to do my Trade and will not listen to a word that I say, yet will ask some life long dole bludger dope addict what does he think with reverence so as not to offend him. the masses have learned that ignorance by what ? Social engineering.

But, how do you REALLY feel?

 

[bbyrd009]

lol

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

That makes me wonder what you think of the "ways" represented in the posts by some of the Christians here in this forum. I've seen racism, antisemitism, extreme homophobic bigotry, truly crazy conspiracy theories, and a whole bunch of other things that have surprised me. If my ways are "obnoxious", I have to wonder what you think about those things from your fellow Christians?

That's life bro !
Tell me what is wrong ? you perception to the things above may be just simplistic shallow understanding dribble of such things.
Racism ? what do you mean by such ? everyone is racist to some point you ignorant clown, I have never meat one person who was not to some degree and I have come across some who were insane racist who's prejudice is astounding ignorant beyond belief, not to mention it's encouraged by the government and it's socially engineered madness dribble that the majority just swallow because it's the trend.
Look at the claim of African American ? well it's clearly a load of dribble in fact, one can not be a African American unless one was born in Africa and came from Africa to America ? other than that one is in fact an American of African decent ? that's a fact ! so why do we hear such childish dumb ignorant dribble ?
I just seen on a show we have here, Who do you think you are, they go back on ones family history. and it's amazing that you see the people claiming to be blacks all wanting to prove there blackness but they do not give a cracker about their white line side. with one idiot she was so upset that she was worked out to be more white than black, what a total racist moron she was but can clearly get away with such madness, then she found out that she was Jewish and related to a bastard Jew who owned the ships who payed Arabs who stole the blacks in Africa and sold them as slaves. Their was the proof of history in the making as fact to the reality. Things that they are nowadays that the main stream that are at pains to cover up, because it comes under the banner of deranged crap like Anti-Semitism.
Oh go for your life on any white man and put all the blame on him 100% but what ever you don't point the finger at the reality of the truth.
Even white people were slaves as well in history, blacks enslaved blacks as well history proves and they were into kidnapping other blacks from other tribes as well before the Jews got into it big time. oh don't mention the truth ! or our ignorant new age shallow society will try and get their Racism Idol god to come down on you for explaining the truth. remember buster Jesus said that it's the Truth that will set you Free !

But you know what buster the worldly can not handle the Truth well, you don't want to inform them of such because they can't handle the truth.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

But, how do you REALLY feel?

Has nothing to do with how I feel in fact but what is reality nowadays.
The point is people are trying to play games and skew the subject, turning the tables on you. and in business one has to know when to draw the line or they will only be to happy to lead you into a ditch.
Maybe the pro doll bludger bit hurt you, well what would one like that know of the real world, they live in a fantasy world.