"I don't like even being around them"

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Justadude

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I understand a bit about the 'scientific method' and know that it does not work with regard to God because He really does exist outside their parameters. [No I cannot prove that to you. God has proven it to me.] He cannot be measured using the measuring tools of the science, which men use.

The best of scientists have to bend a bit to get started. They take measurements and make observations supposedly gathering facts, but in doing so they make certain presumptions before they even begin to test and try out any hypothesis. They presume that their natural perceptions [vision, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting] are real and accurate. Without those presumptions how far could they get?

What could they perceive without any of those five senses? Nothing at all! And if man's determined world [based on his perceptions] really is nothing at all, [only a fiction that appears to real to a very temporal set of perceptions] and only God and the things seen by the power of the Holy Spirit are the reality, then science has stumbled at its very beginning. I know that you and others, even among Christians, won't believe that. But, I do not expect you to... Only God calls people. And only God really increases people.
I'm always fascinated when religious folks resort to solipsism when they try and minimize the importance of rationality, critical thinking, and objectivity. Apparently it doesn't occur to you that if none of what we think of as "reality" is real, then your Bible, church, sacraments, rituals, prayers, etc. aren't real either. The computer you're using to communicate with me isn't real. I'm not real! You and I aren't talking with each other, it's just God talking to God.

I find that completely ridiculous.

No, that is not what I am saying. You have drawn that conclusion yourself. Don't lay it on me, even if other Christians have embraced it.
I simply quoted the verses and indicated my own understanding of them. You're skeptical or in complete disbelief because it won't fit your way of thinking? No one can make you believe what you don't believe.
Well yeah. Why would I believe something that doesn't make sense?

You still approach it with only a man's logic. In a measure so does each person.
What other logic is there?

Jesus was beyond that and at times so are believers when they are available and God makes use of their availability. You cannot understand that and in your limited point of view, your viewpoint within a fiction, you want to talk them out of their faith, but if the faith is real, what you suggest won't happen. You are limited by your limited belief. You cannot see, hear, smell, taste or feel it, therefore to you it is questionable or non-existent.
To me, this is another significant psychological factor to religious belief. Note how many times you use the word "limited" to refer to me. That indicates that you believe your viewpoint is superior because it isn't as "limited", right?

That's a sales technique. Make the mark feel like they're missing out on something special and they'll be more prone to buy what you're selling. Oh sure you could just keep that basic car, but you don't want to limit yourself to just that do you? Wouldn't you like to have the car with the extras?

Believing that you have special or unique abilities, insights, or knowledge makes you feel good. We're all susceptible to that. That's why good salespeople and con artists exploit it. It seems obvious to me that when Christians talk about being able to see into the "spiritual realm", hearing from the "holy spirit", "operating in the prophetic", and such, they're exhibiting a textbook psychological desire to be unique and special.

You are presuming that without what you name objective proof, it cannot be.
Nope, never said that. I simply noted that there's no objective means to tell which of two mutually exclusive religious claims is true.

Actually it can. It is simply that you do not have the means to perceive it. You doubt that I do? I cannot prove it to you. Only God can do that, but He has chosen to use another pathway, a pathway you are unwilling or unable to walk. It is the only Way. Death is elsewhere.
Yet another appeal to special abilities.


The point was/is that there is a reality in God and His Son that many bearing the label, Christian, miss. This does not give you more than you had.
Why do they miss it?

You say more relevant, but I would ask, Relevant to what? To your temporal or even fictional existence?
Again, if you need to resort to solipsism to make your point, then IMO that serves to indicate the weakness of your point. And if you really believe existence is fictional, then why bother? You and I aren't even conversing, it's just God godding with God.
 
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Justadude

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In my opinion, agnosticism is the most honest position one could take on the issue of God. After all, agnostics are being more truthful than the atheists or believers. In truth, believers do not know there is a god, they believe there is a god. Same with atheists; atheists do not know that god does not exist, they believe that god does not exist.
I kind of agree, but with one nuance. I see it as that since "god" isn't defined in any sort of useful way, it renders the question "do gods exist" pointless.

First off, in the short time I have been on this site, I have never seen you post anything that can be considered 'obnoxious'.
Thank you! :)

I do hope you would tell me if I ever sound racist, homophobic, or antisemetic.
I usually just ignore it. I've had enough online experiences with those sorts of people to know that engaging them is a waste of time.

Just because I believe LGBTQs are sinners does not mean I hate them. I am concerned with anyone who uses the term 'homophobe'. Homohaters I have met, but never a homophobe. Phobias, by definition involve very well-defined symptoms that I have never observed in the people referred to as 'homophobes' (this does not include George Costanza, who is a fictional character).
I've seen a couple of instances here where a Christian said they were afraid that soon, gays would come to their door to rape them and the government would force them to submit.

It is my opinion that our culture misuses the 'phobic' label when applied to people who are opposed to LGBTQs. The Leftists do tend to change the narrative so as to make things appear different then they really are.
I think it's an apt term to use when Christians freak out over the mere acknowledgement that gays exist, such as the inclusion of gay characters in books, movies, and TV shows...plus, the over the top rhetoric from prominent Christian leaders and organizations about all the horrible things that would befall us if we dared to let gay couples marry. Those all seem quite fear-based.

Additionally, crazy theories can be found in most groups of people. Flat earthers are not Christians; new-agers (crystal gazers, energy healers, astrologists, tarot readers, etc.) are generally science deniers, too. Ancient aliens, Kennedy assassination, Knights Templars, etc. etc. Humans have a tendency toward superstition, and this tendency may be genetic.
I agree, although I will note that many flat-earthers are Christians. There are lots of flat-earth youtube videos that appeal to scripture.

Overgeneralizations are necessary for survival; making guesses when we have inadequate information is the typical way humans make decisions on a day to day basis. Waiting for more objective information to be collected will often result in death for a hunter-gatherer.
But we can't fall into the trap of false equivalency either, where we just dismiss the crazies by saying "every group has crazies". Yes, every large group has crazies, but not always in the same proportions.
 

Justadude

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Once you ask the Holy Spirit to show you, it would make perfect sense.
I'll again point out how circular that is. In order for the belief to make sense, I have to first believe it (i.e., believe in a "holy spirit" that magically interacts with people), then it will make enough sense for me to believe it.

Why would a god use such obviously flawed methods to convey what is supposed to be a vitally important message?

There is a scripture that says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."1 Corinthians 1:18 And there are those who have set out to prove that the scriptures are wrong, only to end up being captivated by Jesus.
Yes, I've had the verse quoted to me countless times. To me it's a clear coping mechanism to explain away the existence of non-believers. After all, if "the message of the cross" is really that obvious and compelling, most people would believe it and the only people who didn't would do so for ridiculous reasons. But we don't see that. All sorts of completely normal, intelligent people don't believe it and oftentimes for very sound reasons. So believers create this narrative to explain the situation.

As I said in a previous post it doesn't make sense to my son either and he was brought up with it. We all have our own path in life and I wish you well and hope one day you find your way to the love of God through Jesus.
I appreciate that. I wish the best for you too. :)
 

Willie T

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JaD,
Do you really think you, your mind, intellect, curiosity, imagination, hopes, dreams, desires, feelings, cravings, and everything around you just happened by accident?
 

Justadude

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@Justadude this is what i was talking about before.
People always seemed to want to force me to chose one side or the other.
They couldn't accept the agnostic position for what it is. It really frustrated me when I was agnostic
Well, that particular person seems rather angry for some reason. Apparently nuanced positions irritate him. :rolleyes:
 

amadeus

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I'm always fascinated when religious folks resort to solipsism when they try and minimize the importance of rationality, critical thinking, and objectivity. Apparently it doesn't occur to you that if none of what we think of as "reality" is real, then your Bible, church, sacraments, rituals, prayers, etc. are real either. The computer you're using to communicate with me isn't real. I'm not real! You and I aren't talking with each other, it's just God talking to God.

I guess your fascination was what you wanted rather than a real discussion. Do you think I don't understand or have not seen all that you are saying? I won't amplify further as you have already decided based on your own rules that what I believe is ridiculous. That is your privilege.
I find that completely ridiculous.

Well yeah. Why would I believe something that doesn't make sense?

Many people look for and expect 'common sense' as they have defined it. Again I was describing because I presumed you were interested in the discussion. I was mistaken. Carry on...!

What other logic is there?
For you I would say there is no other because you cannot perceive another.
To me, this is another significant psychological factor to religious belief. Note how many times you use the word "limited" to refer to me. That indicates that you believe your viewpoint is superior because it isn't as "limited", right?
God is superior in every way. I am only what He has made me including any increase He has provided. The "limited" applies to everyone who limits. Everyone limits. How does one stop limiting? You already have your answers so why are you bothering with me?
That's a sales technique. Make the mark feel like they're missing out on something special and they'll be more prone to buy what you're selling. Oh sure you could just keep that basic car, but you don't want to limit yourself to just that do you? Wouldn't you like to have the car with the extras?

Sales technique? My friend I am not selling. You don't have to agree with me and I certainly did not expect you to... but don't call me a salesman. I am simply a messenger. I don't and cannot sell what I have. I give it to any that want it, but the price is still very high. Nonsense? So it is to you!

I was hopeful you were serious enough not to mock. I was mistaken. I have a thick skin but I see no reason to continue in this channel.

Believing that you have special or unique abilities, insights, or knowledge makes you feel good. We're all susceptible to that. That's why good salespeople and con artists exploit it. It seems obvious to me that when Christians talk about being able to see into the "spiritual realm", hearing from the "holy spirit", "operating in the prophetic", and such, they're exhibiting a textbook psychological desire to be unique and special.

Nothing is what I have been when it comes down to it as far as you are concerned but faith. You have your faith in the products of your perceptions and conclusions drawn from them. Using that, which includes of course your textbook of psychological profiles, I am nothing. That is the best place for a person to start... down at the very bottom. although most people don't believe that or try to do that.
Nope, never said that. I simply noted that there's no objective means to tell which of two mutually exclusive religious claims is true.

You know some definitions, but you certainly have no conception of what having faith in God means. I don't have to prove anything to you. You really are not even interested in hearing what I have to say... nor in what God has to say. You were critical of @Ezra here, but is your manifested attitude toward my belief so much better? According to your way of thinking, you logic, you are right, but since you have not even really understood [although you may think you have] you have nothing. That is, as I said, a good starting place but if you never took on anything it would still be nothing.

Yet another appeal to special abilities.
The special abilities are God's. He has given some things in different quantities to everyone and has promised more. You don't want any, which is your choice and so then when the time allotted is gone you will be back at nothing with no place else to go.

You say you are agnostic, but your stand denies or mocks the possibility that God could have more than any man alone has. You might as well be an atheist.
Why do they miss it?

Believers at times miss for the same reason you do! They follow the wrong leader. They usually have chosen a way in which growth is possible. You have chosen nothing or vanity:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?" Ecc 1:2-3
Again, if you need to resort to solipsism to make your point, then IMO that serves to indicate the weakness of your point. And if you really believe existence is fictional, then why bother? You and I aren't even conversing, it's just God godding with God.
It has never been my intention to debate anything with you. I was explaining where I am as I mistakenly thought you were really interested. That you do not believe I understand, but you don't even want to hear from me anything outside your perceived realm what is possibility... unless it is to be fascinated or entertained. But... this is too one sided for me. Let someone else entertain you. I will go elsewhere. Have a good day.
 

Justadude

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Yep. The question of God was not important to me either for a while.
I was particularly interested in the subject of morality form a long time and still am
What specifically about morality interested you?

I know what u mean. I found religion to be almost like a barrier and still do at times. I don't know who was taking u to church.
A person is rarely converted by people and such attempts often serve to further someones skepticism
My parents took me to church from the time I was a week old, to when I was 15 and they let me decide for myself. And it wasn't just Sunday services either; there was youth meetings Sunday nights, Bible study on Wednesdays, and Bible camps during the summer (I liked those because I usually got a girlfriend ;)).

What are your thoughts on the big bang theory and the theory of evolution? Are they true or false or somewhere in between?
For full disclosure, I do work in biology and I used to spend quite a bit of time in online debates with creationists. But a couple of years ago I noticed how stale and boring the whole thing had become, and it seemed to me the creationists weren't really even trying any more. The vast majority of "debates" were just repeats of the same tired old talking points that had been done to death for decades.

Anyways.....with the big bang, my understanding is that they've got quite a bit of it figured out in terms of what happened from the very early stages on, but what happened to trigger the whole thing remains a mystery. But to be fair, it's not something I regularly stay up to speed on. As far as evolution, scientifically that was settled a long time ago and nothing has come about to call it into question since. We know populations evolve because we see them do so, and we know new species come about via evolution because we've seen them do so. We can also say with a very high degree of certainty that all life on earth shares a common ancestry, humans included. Of course scientists still have lots to figure out about exactly how all that happened, but that's understandable since life has existed and has been evolving on earth for ~4 billion years.

That's the scientific perspective. Naturally there's the religious perspective, which in some cases denies all of that. But it seems obvious that they do so for non-scientific reasons, which is fine with me as long as they're up front and honest about it.
 

Justadude

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So u grew up in a Christian family as well. My path was similar to yours. Have u ever considered yourself to be an atheist?
No, not really. For most of my life religion and religious issues/questions didn't interest me. I always liked the term "apatheism" and it probably was the best descriptor for me for quite some time. It might still be, although my presence here would indicate that I'm not really as apathetic about religion as I used to be.
 

Justadude

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That could certainly be true. It was when I was studying engineering that I was most atheist.
Seeing i asked your opinion on the big bang theory and the theory of evolution u may as well tell me your field, mine is engineering
Ah, engineers! I work with a few and we always joke about the differences between biology and engineering. Engineers work in a world where things are precise and constant, whereas the world of biology has a lot of "sometimes" and "possiblys".

Not everyone who has studied a scientific subject is agnostic or atheist.
When I was in hospital for a week i did my own little survey and asked doctors and nurses weather they believed in God.
Most nurses did but i was surprised, at the time, how many doctors believed in God. About half of them
For sure. Most of my colleagues aren't religious but some certainly are. One of my best work friends is fairly religious.
 

Justadude

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I would say it makes sense that something created what we see. I don't know of any random processes that can create something complex
For example a watch cannot be assembled without a watchmaker
The same way that the entities in a computer simulated program have no idea how they got there
Well, keep in mind that evolution is not a random process. It has an element of randomness in it, but the overall process is not random.

So for me believing in God wasn't that difficult. Believing in Jesus and everything else in Christianity is much more difficult
What ended up convincing you to convert to Christianity?
 

Justadude

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I guess your fascination was what you wanted rather than a real discussion. Do you think I don't understand or have not seen all that you are saying? I won't amplify further as you have already decided based on your own rules that what I believe is ridiculous. That is your privilege.

Many people look for and expect 'common sense' as they have defined it. Again I was describing because I presumed you were interested in the discussion. I was mistaken. Carry on...!

It seems you're shutting down. I apologize if I've made you feel defensive.

See, to me this is a discussion where you came in and shared with me what you believe, and I replied by explaining how your beliefs come across to me. Obviously I was mistaken in assuming you would be okay with that. I'm not sure what else you were expecting, but it clearly wasn't what I did.

For you I would say there is no other because you cannot perceive another.
Why not?

You already have your answers so why are you bothering with me?
You initiated a discussion with me, so I responded. And now it looks like you're a bit annoyed or upset that I dared question your beliefs.

To be fair, that's not unusual in my experiences. Some of my Christians friends would do the same thing, where they would initiate a conversation with me about Christianity, but then get irritated when I started explaining my point of view, eventually ending the conversation much the way you are, i.e., by asking something like "if you don't believe any of this, why are you bothering" as if I started the whole thing.

It also reminds me of my youth and our church, where my daring to question what they were teaching was seen as a terribly negative thing, to the point where they even confronted my parents about it. All I can say is, I'm just that type of person who questions everything. If that approach annoys you and makes you feel defensive, I'm not sure what else to do.


Sales technique? My friend I am not selling. You don't have to agree with me and I certainly did not expect you to... but don't call me a salesman. I am simply a messenger. I don't and cannot sell what I have. I give it to any that want it, but the price is still very high. Nonsense? So it is to you!
I didn't say you were selling, nor did I call you a salesman. I simply pointed out how some of what you were saying was similar to a common sales technique. But that doesn't make you a salesman any more than you saying something similar to the scientific method makes you a scientist.

I was hopeful you were serious enough not to mock. I was mistaken. I have a thick skin but I see no reason to continue in this channel.
It was never my intent to mock.

You have your faith in the products of your perceptions and conclusions drawn from them.
We all do. You have "faith" that when you entered those words on your keyboard they would be posted in this forum and I would see them. But that's not the same sort of "faith" as in religion.

You know some definitions, but you certainly have no conception of what having faith in God means. I don't have to prove anything to you. You really are not even interested in hearing what I have to say... nor in what God has to say.
I am interested in what you have to say; that's why I've taken the time to read your posts and reply. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't find it interesting.

You were critical of @Ezra here, but is your manifested attitude toward my belief so much better? According to your way of thinking, you logic, you are right, but since you have not even really understood [although you may think you have] you have nothing. That is, as I said, a good starting place but if you never took on anything it would still be nothing.
I was critical of Ezra because of his apparent unwillingness to even talk with non-Christians. Since I'm conversing with you and other Christians, I'm obviously not guilty of the same thing.

And yes, don't we all think we're right? Do you know of anyone who thinks their own worldview is wrong?

You say you are agnostic, but your stand denies or mocks the possibility that God could have more than any man alone has. You might as well be an atheist.
I don't deny that gods could possibly exist. But since no one can say exactly what a "god" is, doesn't that render the question of their existence meaningless?

Believers at times miss for the same reason you do! They follow the wrong leader. They usually have chosen a way in which growth is possible. You have chosen nothing or vanity:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?" Ecc 1:2-3
So you have the real truth, and anyone who disagrees is wrong?

It has never been my intention to debate anything with you.
It looks to me like you enjoy telling others what the truth is, but do not like being questioned. And like I said earlier, I've found that to be a fairly common trait among the religious. It's why there aren't open-forum Q & A sessions after sermons.

I was explaining where I am as I mistakenly thought you were really interested. That you do not believe I understand, but you don't even want to hear from me anything outside your perceived realm what is possibility... unless it is to be fascinated or entertained. But... this is too one sided for me. Let someone else entertain you. I will go elsewhere. Have a good day.
Again, you're thinking that since I'm questioning you I must not be interested, which is a mistake. However, it's clear that my style of questioning has made you uncomfortable, so I understand why you want to end. Thanks for the discussion! :)
 
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Justadude

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JaD,
Do you really think you, your mind, intellect, curiosity, imagination, hopes, dreams, desires, feelings, cravings, and everything around you just happened by accident?
That's a rather biased way of framing it, don't you think? I would put it as, all of those things came about by completely natural means. And that's consistent with all our observations across history, since no matter where we've looked in the universe, all we've ever seen are natural events/mechanisms playing out.
 

Willie T

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That's a rather biased way of framing it, don't you think? I would put it as, all of those things came about by completely natural means. And that's consistent with all our observations across history, since no matter where we've looked in the universe, all we've ever seen are natural events/mechanisms playing out.
And it is just a natural happening of things that of a total of 8.7 million species living on the planet, only we have all of those things I mentioned?
 
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Justadude

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And it is just a natural happening of things that of a total of 8.7 million species live on the planet, only we have any of those things I mentioned?
Yes. And to clarify, "those things" (emotions and intelligence) are also present in non-human species to varying degrees.
 

Willie T

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Yes. And to clarify, "those things" (emotions and intelligence) are also present in non-human species to varying degrees.
And, you actually believe that? (Even though I mentioned far more than just Emotions & Intelligence)
 
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Cristo Rei

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What specifically about morality interested you?

Morality. Right and wrong. Seemed simple until i started to really think about it.
How do i know what is right if I don't know what right is. His wrong is my right so who is right... That's how it started for me

It's a huge topic but uv brought up some other huge topics as well like this

What ended up convincing you to convert to Christianity?

Wel it wasn't some fantastic moment of enlightenment. More like a journey where a lot of things contributed like morality, science, evil, consciousness, the universe, our minds, nature and heaps of other things

That's a brief on those topics, we can discuss them further eventually if u want.
I don't think i can juggle that many deep conversations at once, LoL. So for now i'll focus on the science stuff.

For full disclosure, I do work in biology and I used to spend quite a bit of time in online debates with creationists.

Ok well i'll tell u what i doubt and we'll go from there.

Ah, engineers! I work with a few and we always joke about the differences between biology and engineering. Engineers work in a world where things are precise and constant, whereas the world of biology has a lot of "sometimes" and "possiblys".

Ahhh, precise and constant, thats us
Its the sometimes and possibilities that don't sit well with me.

Firstly, there is applied science and theoretical science. The applied science has to be precise whereas the theoretical science doesn't
Mechanical engineering is applied science. Cosmology can be theoretical
It's the same with biology. There are jobs in biology that require precision, true.

That is basically what my inquiry was centered on. The standards of evidence and the methods of falsification
For us, mathematics and testing is how we falsify/verify

I put my faith in ToE and big bang theory expecting them to be precise
This assumption was the main reason for me becoming an atheist.
The realization that it wasn't so precise and verifiable pushed me to agnosticism.

Ok, so i don't deny microevolution like the beaks on Darwins finches
My skepticism is with common ancestry and macroevolution, natural selection through random mutation

It is said that all life began with one cell. What happened leading up to this is a whole other topic that im skeptical of but we'll assume that for argument sake.

With the cell, for me, falsifiable evidence would be to show how one cell can spawn another cell, a different new cell. Cos there are heaps of different types of cells that make up an animal, right.
Then, when there are heaps of different cells how did they arrange themselves to create all the organs, bones and the countless other parts of an animal.
And then how would of those body parts come together to create an animal.

From one cell to the animal is such a massive leap.
What is the falsifiable evidence for it? An observable lab exercise or maths would be ideal.

Then we get multiple animals and plants from this common ancestor by natural selection through random mutation.
Ok, so they know the genome of animals like flies, mice and such, right. And they've been at work trying to create a mutation that is superior in some way to the original.
So from an engineers perspective i would like to see something like a fly with un upgrade in its propulsion system, maybe bigger wings so its faster or something, u know.

But even that would only demonstrate microevolution. To demonstrate macro evolution then we would need to do several mutations in order to show the fly evolve into something else like a wasp. And that evolve into a different type of species all together (phyla is it) like a fish or mammal

From what I understand every mutation has resulted in a deficient creature
Without testable or mathematical evidence its hard for me to believe it.

Im guessing u will talk about fossils.
How can u tell if its a transitional species or a different species?
Do fossils show us how plants and animals diverged?
What are the best fossil evidence for transition of species? Is it that archaeopteryx still?
It might be evidence, but it might not be as well
Is there an adequate explanation for the Cambrian explosion of new life forms?
Are fossils falsifiable? How? They can be interpreted differently by different people

One thing i find as being deceitful are the clay sculptures and illustrations of apes that look like men. Lucy is our best example right.
From memory it is said that the final evolutionary development for man was the ability to walk on two legs. If that was the case then why doesn't Lucy look like a human, why does she still look like an ape in these clay sculptures?

But the my biggest skepticism comes from the fact that so very few bones were even found. No feet bones. So the hypothesis that she walked on two legs comes down to speculation again, i think the hips or something. There is such a massive difference between our feet and that of an apes which is more like a hand. Would that have evolved in the one mutation or several? And the hips and legs?

Another thing that makes me suspect is the motive, the war between creationists and Darwinist's has been going on since day one. Hoaxes have been presented like piltdown man.

Characters like Richard Dawkins always made me scratch my head. Here we have a biologist that never talks about biology. Instead he talks about the one thing that shouldn't be spoken about in science, religion. There is a clear motive there

It all makes me question the motivation.
We must follow the facts but they create a hypothesis and then look for evidence to support it while ignoring anything that contradicts it, there is a term for this method of inquiry and im not a fan of it.

The way that Darwinism is presented appears to be ideologically driven as well. I see it as they best hypothesis science has atm. But it's presented as unquestionable fact.

Their some of the points that im skeptical about anyway
Sorry for writing a book, i hope its not boring and makes sense
 

amadeus

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It seems you're shutting down. I apologize if I've made you feel defensive.
See, to me this is a discussion where you came in and shared with me what you believe, and I replied by explaining how your beliefs come across to me. Obviously I was mistaken in assuming you would be okay with that. I'm not sure what else you were expecting, but it clearly wasn't what I did.
Why not?
You initiated a discussion with me, so I responded. And now it looks like you're a bit annoyed or upset that I dared question your beliefs.
To be fair, that's not unusual in my experiences. Some of my Christians friends would do the same thing, where they would initiate a conversation with me about Christianity, but then get irritated when I started explaining my point of view, eventually ending the conversation much the way you are, i.e., by asking something like "if you don't believe any of this, why are you bothering" as if I started the whole thing.
It also reminds me of my youth and our church, where my daring to question what they were teaching was seen as a terribly negative thing, to the point where they even confronted my parents about it. All I can say is, I'm just that type of person who questions everything. If that approach annoys you and makes you feel defensive, I'm not sure what else to do.
I didn't say you were selling, nor did I call you a salesman. I simply pointed out how some of what you were saying was similar to a common sales technique. But that doesn't make you a salesman any more than you saying something similar to the scientific method makes you a scientist.
It was never my intent to mock.
We all do. You have "faith" that when you entered those words on your keyboard they would be posted in this forum and I would see them. But that's not the same sort of "faith" as in religion.
I am interested in what you have to say; that's why I've taken the time to read your posts and reply. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't find it interesting.
I was critical of Ezra because of his apparent unwillingness to even talk with non-Christians. Since I'm conversing with you and other Christians, I'm obviously not guilty of the same thing.
And yes, don't we all think we're right? Do you know of anyone who thinks their own worldview is wrong?
I don't deny that gods could possibly exist. But since no one can say exactly what a "god" is, doesn't that render the question of their existence meaningless?
So you have the real truth, and anyone who disagrees is wrong?
It looks to me like you enjoy telling others what the truth is, but do not like being questioned. And like I said earlier, I've found that to be a fairly common trait among the religious. It's why there aren't open-forum Q & A sessions after sermons.
Again, you're thinking that since I'm questioning you I must not be interested, which is a mistake. However, it's clear that my style of questioning has made you uncomfortable, so I understand why you want to end. Thanks for the discussion! :)

Perhaps I did initiate the discussion with you because you impressed me as being more open-minded than many Christians I know and we had a few areas where we could converse. My mistake was to presume things about you that were not true... and I am not speaking about faith in God.

However you accuse me of things which are really presumptions on your part. Because others may have admitted they did certain things for certain reasons, you conclude that all believers are there as well.

That is not how all people are and it certainly is not how all believers are. I won't argue the points as such an argument would be pointless. You can contradict or disagree with my words. That is your choice. I am not foolishness enough to presume I can do something I have already acknowledged that I cannot.

You may believe you know what your purpose is on a Christian forum.
I know that you do not know what mine is.
This is primarily why I am leaving this particular discussion.
 
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Justadude

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@amadeus it's pretty clear that you and I are quite different people with very different ways of looking at things. Of course that's perfectly okay, it just sometimes creates communication problems, which can become larger problems if we're not careful.

It's always been my instinct to question what people tell me, so much so that I oftentimes lose sight of what I'm doing and how it can be perceived. Clearly you were just sharing your beliefs with me and not expecting to be grilled like you were in court. So I apologize.

If you don't mind, I'll go ahead and respond to your last post with more self-awareness.


Perhaps I did initiate the discussion with you because you impressed me as being more open-minded than many Christians I know and we had a few areas where we could converse. My mistake was to presume things about you that were not true... and I am not speaking about faith in God.
I try as best I can to maintain a balance between being open-minded but not so much so that I become susceptible to being duped or believing in something simply because I want it to be true.

However you accuse me of things which are really presumptions on your part. Because others may have admitted they did certain things for certain reasons, you conclude that all believers are there as well.
I'm truly sorry if I did that. When somebody says something to me that reminds me of something I've heard before, I tend to share that previous experience with the person I'm talking with, mostly because I find that sort of thing interesting when it occurs. So when some of the things you said reminded me of past experiences I've had, I shared that. But I didn't mean to imply "you're all the same" or anything like that.

I won't argue the points as such an argument would be pointless. You can contradict or disagree with my words. That is your choice. I am not foolishness enough to presume I can do something I have already acknowledged that I cannot.
Again, sorry 'bout that. I wasn't trying to argue.

You may believe you know what your purpose is on a Christian forum.
I know that you do not know what mine is.
This is primarily why I am leaving this particular discussion.
I wish you the best. :)
 
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Justadude

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Morality. Right and wrong. Seemed simple until i started to really think about it.
How do i know what is right if I don't know what right is. His wrong is my right so who is right... That's how it started for me

It's a huge topic but uv brought up some other huge topics as well like this
That's interesting because it's kind of the opposite for me. Morality under Christianity never made sense to me and it wasn't until I thought about it in more practical, non-religious terms that things began to make sense.

Wel it wasn't some fantastic moment of enlightenment. More like a journey where a lot of things contributed like morality, science, evil, consciousness, the universe, our minds, nature and heaps of other things

That's a brief on those topics, we can discuss them further eventually if u want.
I don't think i can juggle that many deep conversations at once, LoL. So for now i'll focus on the science stuff.
Okay, but to be honest I'm not really inclined to teach a course in evolutionary biology here. I can give you places to go online where you can learn the subject for free if you're interested. But I will give brief answers to your questions (and please keep in mind these are very brief, simplistic answers; to go into the full detail would take months).

Ahhh, precise and constant, thats us
Its the sometimes and possibilities that don't sit well with me.

Firstly, there is applied science and theoretical science. The applied science has to be precise whereas the theoretical science doesn't
Mechanical engineering is applied science. Cosmology can be theoretical
It's the same with biology. There are jobs in biology that require precision, true.
One of the species projects I've worked on over the years involves working with engineers. I remember one time when an engineer asked me when the species breeds. I said "between mid-May and mid-June". Well sure enough, that same year there was a documented breeding event on June 20th, and as soon as it was reported the engineer called me up, quite upset, and said "You said they would be done breeding by mid-June! You were wrong!" I laughed and explained that the critters do what they do, when they want, and they don't give a hoot about our calendars. So when I say "mid-May to mid-June", I mean that the bulk of them will breed during that time and it's always possible that some might do so outside that window. That made him even more upset, to which I responded "This isn't engineering and breeding isn't like tensile strength, where it's constant. Biology is messy!"

Very different worlds.

I'll continue in the next post (word count).
 
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