I'm always fascinated when religious folks resort to solipsism when they try and minimize the importance of rationality, critical thinking, and objectivity. Apparently it doesn't occur to you that if none of what we think of as "reality" is real, then your Bible, church, sacraments, rituals, prayers, etc. aren't real either. The computer you're using to communicate with me isn't real. I'm not real! You and I aren't talking with each other, it's just God talking to God.I understand a bit about the 'scientific method' and know that it does not work with regard to God because He really does exist outside their parameters. [No I cannot prove that to you. God has proven it to me.] He cannot be measured using the measuring tools of the science, which men use.
The best of scientists have to bend a bit to get started. They take measurements and make observations supposedly gathering facts, but in doing so they make certain presumptions before they even begin to test and try out any hypothesis. They presume that their natural perceptions [vision, hearing, touching, smelling and tasting] are real and accurate. Without those presumptions how far could they get?
What could they perceive without any of those five senses? Nothing at all! And if man's determined world [based on his perceptions] really is nothing at all, [only a fiction that appears to real to a very temporal set of perceptions] and only God and the things seen by the power of the Holy Spirit are the reality, then science has stumbled at its very beginning. I know that you and others, even among Christians, won't believe that. But, I do not expect you to... Only God calls people. And only God really increases people.
I find that completely ridiculous.
No, that is not what I am saying. You have drawn that conclusion yourself. Don't lay it on me, even if other Christians have embraced it.
Well yeah. Why would I believe something that doesn't make sense?I simply quoted the verses and indicated my own understanding of them. You're skeptical or in complete disbelief because it won't fit your way of thinking? No one can make you believe what you don't believe.
What other logic is there?You still approach it with only a man's logic. In a measure so does each person.
To me, this is another significant psychological factor to religious belief. Note how many times you use the word "limited" to refer to me. That indicates that you believe your viewpoint is superior because it isn't as "limited", right?Jesus was beyond that and at times so are believers when they are available and God makes use of their availability. You cannot understand that and in your limited point of view, your viewpoint within a fiction, you want to talk them out of their faith, but if the faith is real, what you suggest won't happen. You are limited by your limited belief. You cannot see, hear, smell, taste or feel it, therefore to you it is questionable or non-existent.
That's a sales technique. Make the mark feel like they're missing out on something special and they'll be more prone to buy what you're selling. Oh sure you could just keep that basic car, but you don't want to limit yourself to just that do you? Wouldn't you like to have the car with the extras?
Believing that you have special or unique abilities, insights, or knowledge makes you feel good. We're all susceptible to that. That's why good salespeople and con artists exploit it. It seems obvious to me that when Christians talk about being able to see into the "spiritual realm", hearing from the "holy spirit", "operating in the prophetic", and such, they're exhibiting a textbook psychological desire to be unique and special.
Nope, never said that. I simply noted that there's no objective means to tell which of two mutually exclusive religious claims is true.You are presuming that without what you name objective proof, it cannot be.
Yet another appeal to special abilities.Actually it can. It is simply that you do not have the means to perceive it. You doubt that I do? I cannot prove it to you. Only God can do that, but He has chosen to use another pathway, a pathway you are unwilling or unable to walk. It is the only Way. Death is elsewhere.
Why do they miss it?The point was/is that there is a reality in God and His Son that many bearing the label, Christian, miss. This does not give you more than you had.
Again, if you need to resort to solipsism to make your point, then IMO that serves to indicate the weakness of your point. And if you really believe existence is fictional, then why bother? You and I aren't even conversing, it's just God godding with God.You say more relevant, but I would ask, Relevant to what? To your temporal or even fictional existence?
Last edited: