"I don't like even being around them"

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Justadude

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Sorry if you thought that but it seemed to me as if that was what you were saying about yourself.
I was just making you aware of my background and that I'm not completely ignorant of what Christianity is about.

Control of their own lives by handing it over to Jesus.
How does that work? Does Jesus make major life decisions for you? How does Jesus convey those decisions to you?

Well it won't until the Holy Spirit give you insight.
How does that work? Does the Holy Spirit actually speak?

I think they sincerely believe.
Okay, so you don't think they're lying about their experiences. Do you think they're deluding themselves?

Lots of Christians have similar experiences; times of trying to reach God and feeling that God isn't answering or that he isn't around any more, But in our hearts we know he is there even when he seems to be absent and he always shows up again once we have learned whatever it was he was teaching us. He speaks to us and he teaches us things.
You actually hear God's voice? What does He sound like?

What seems to be your stumbling block to believing? Is it anything specific? Or just as you say it doesn't make sense.
It's never made sense to me.

It doesn't have to make sense though to somebody who has not received the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Once a person receives that it all makes complete sense. So that is what you are lacking and what you need in order to 'see' God.
Try and see this from my POV. Here's a religious belief that doesn't make sense to me. Part of that belief is this thing called "the Holy Spirit" that apparently God uses to relay messages to people. Why a God would work in such a convoluted way is part of what doesn't make sense.

Then believers in this religion tell me that I need to just go ahead and believe in God and the Holy Spirit, and then God...through the Holy Spirit...will provide me guidance that will make sense of it all.

Can you appreciate how bizarre and circular that seems?

If you can't, can you at least put it in the context of a non-Christian religion? IOW, would you accept the same sort of reasoning from a Hindu? If a Hindu told you to just go ahead and believe in Vishnu and once you truly believed, Vishnu would reveal the truth to you in a way that made Hinduism make sense?

Keep asking.
Like I said, it's been 40 years. Would you keep asking Vishnu for 4 decades even though you'd not received a single thing?
 

Pearl

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Like I said, it's been 40 years. Would you keep asking Vishnu for 4 decades even though you'd not received a single thing?
Ah well, if you're asking Vishnu you are definitely talking to the wrong god. ;)
 

Justadude

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Usually, things just "dawn on me." And I kind of think, "Oh!... Of course."
Do you think your background and/or beliefs influence that? Like, if you were a Muslim raised in a Muslim culture you'd interpret those realizations as "Oh, of course. Allah is great!"
 

Pearl

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If you can't, can you at least put it in the context of a non-Christian religion? IOW, would you accept the same sort of reasoning from a Hindu? If a Hindu told you to just go ahead and believe in Vishnu and once you truly believed, Vishnu would reveal the truth to you in a way that made Hinduism make sense?
But we aren't talking about those other gods we are talking about the One True God whose name is Yarweh or Jehovah or Jesus. If you want answers then he is the only one who will you answers. Trust me, I'm a believer. :D
 

Justadude

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@Pearl it seems like your entire approach to our discussion is to just assert to me that your God is real and all those other ones are made up. You also don't seem to be willing to try and see this from my POV. So thanks for your time and have a great rest of your day. :)
 

Cristo Rei

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Okay, but to be honest I'm not really inclined to teach a course in evolutionary biology here. I can give you places to go online where you can learn the subject for free if you're interested. But I will give brief answers to your questions (and please keep in mind these are very brief, simplistic answers; to go into the full detail would take months)

Ye i understand, it is a complicated topic with many different lines of inquiry and evidence.
I haven't actually looked at it for about 10 years. I was an atheist at that stage which is why my arguments aren't religious
I notice that your in deep discussion with others as well. Its hard to juggle so many conversions

Do you believe microevolution stops at some point? Like say if a species has been "microevolving" for 10 million years, would it know to stop before it got to a point where it "macroevolved"?

Thats a good point, I don't know.

So basically you're asking me to explain the entire evolutionary history of multicellular organisms....that's all

LoL, I wasn't... I was trying to simplify something that isn't simple... A challenge in science is trying to explain complex things in very simple and easy to understand language. One of my teachers said you should try to explain something like your speaking to a 10 year old like a teacher.
I find it hard to do

But if you're looking for a 100% complete narrative of evolutionary history from the first cells all the way through animals like we have today, that's not going to happen.

Ye that's what i had concluded all those years ago. I could be wrong but I don't think there has been any major developments that has changed anything in the last 10 years

So to expect one order to evolve into another right before our eyes is kinda silly.

Well i actually did say that it would probably require several mutations, not just one.

Of course there's a lot more to this, but I really don't have the time or ambition to go over it all.

I understand

Well, you can believe it.

I could just believe it but then it would be more like a religion based on faith

Hoaxes and frauds exist in just about every human institution, including Christianity. Certainly we don't evaluate the validity of an entire concept based solely on the existence of a few hoaxes over the course of hundreds of years.

Ye i know. Im not basing my conclusion solely on that. It just makes me, and others skeptical which is the way i approach science anyway.
Skepticism is healthy in science, hypothesis need to be questioned and tested often, not to try and verify it (which is mainly what i see) but to try and falsify it (which is a much harder test)

Dawkins is both a scientist and an atheist activist. He's most famous for his atheism though, and IMO he sometimes inappropriate mixes the two.

IMO he always mixes the two when ive heard him speak. As soon as religion is injected into a scientific discussion it becomes inappropriate

Are you aware of prominent Christian evolutionary scientists like Dr. Francis Collins? Have you ever heard of Biologos, an organization that works to show how science and religion can be compatible? Or the Clergy Letter Project?

No, im unaware. I know there are theistic evolutionists. From a religious pov i didn't take them seriously. But I gave them a chance and listened to their arguments. While they do have gaps to fill and things that can't be explained they actually have some valid arguments.

I remember at one stage i thought these opposing views are most likely not 100% right but have some aspect of truth to them
With religion its the claim that a creator exists, with ToE its the claim that evolution does exist in some form. I still think that

I'll address you question about morals after I touch on astrophysics and cosmology in my next post
 

Willie T

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Do you think your background and/or beliefs influence that? Like, if you were a Muslim raised in a Muslim culture you'd interpret those realizations as "Oh, of course. Allah is great!"
Of course I would. Have you ever heard me spouting the line that "God" is only god to the Christians? I personally believe that what most of us worship as "God" probably wouldn't even be recognized by the power that created ALL men, no matter what religion they follow. G-d is still the same God to the Jews as He is to us, They just choose to think things are following a different timeline than Christians do.

But, I was not raised as a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Shintoist, or a Taoist, or a Sikhist, or an American Indian, or any of the other names the creator of the Universe is known by. So, of course I relate to that "being" as the God I was raised hearing about. How does any of the argumentative consternation men bicker about have a thing to do with trying to pretend the Universe just "naturally happened" with no intelligent force behind it, guiding things?
 
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Willie T

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Yes, I happen to think "Allah" is the same God as our Jehovah. The worshipers of Allah just got themselves sidetracked — giving him the same sort of confused attributes so many of us competing Christians variously give our Jehovah.
 

bbyrd009

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Yes, I happen to think "Allah" is the same God as our Jehovah. The worshipers of Allah just got themselves sidetracked — giving him the same sort of confused attributes so many of us competing Christians variously give our Jehovah.
ha, comes out kinda funny being as how "Jehovah" is a construct :)
 

Nancy

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Surrender is the key word always; surrendering our lives to Him. I had no crisis as such but had been on tranquilisers for years - even during my pregnancy. I just wanted to be forgiven and accepted and to know that I was a 'proper' Christian. The day after my re-birth everything seemed clearer, brighter and more colourful and the heavy weight that had been on me was lifted and I've never taken another single tranquiliser. Praise God for his love, and grace and mercy. And praise him for finding me and opening my eyes and bringing me darkness into light.

It's amazing how He works in each of us differently yet with the same outcome. He truly is a personal God. And it is sad to think of the many who might have come to Him, but were turned off and/or
criticized by and treated badly by the hypocritical "Christians".
We should not be keeping our eyes on others, but on Christ. And the more one knows Christ, the more they can recognize a true brother or sister in Christ.
xo
 
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Cristo Rei

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@Justadude I'll give u my thoughts on cosmology and astrophysics.

The big bang theory leaves us with some questions.
What caused the explosion and where did all the matter come from

I made the analogy of the watchmaker b4. It was in reference to this, the explosion that seems to have formed a Rolex watch

To be fair they don't claim all the matter came with the bang but gradually over time. Either way, matter coming from nothing is impossible

About 15 years ago astrophysicists thought they were on the verge of answering the biggest questions of the universe
Some even said they were about to find God through the magic of maths.

So after alerting everyone what did they find... Nothing but nothing
Astrophysicists were shattered.

Their answer is really lame in my opinion, its the multiverse.
This theory supposes that there is some kind of mechanism or phenomenon that is pumping out universes. But all these universes are incapable of sustaining life
Only our universe or one in trillions of universes are lucky enough to sustain life

The reason i find it to be lame is cos their maths was falsified so they came up with this story without any mathematical evidence
They've just taken evolution and tried to apply it to space. Countless mutations will be dysfunctional before a good one appears
Its the same here, countless dysfunctional universes before one good one.
 

Pearl

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Do you think your background and/or beliefs influence that? Like, if you were a Muslim raised in a Muslim culture you'd interpret those realizations as "Oh, of course. Allah is great!"
Why do you keep talking about Muslims and other faiths? They have their own beliefs which you should ask them about but they don't recognise Jesus as God's only son; just another prophet but less important than Mohammed.
 
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Justadude

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Ye i understand, it is a complicated topic with many different lines of inquiry and evidence.
Like most other science subjects, if you really want to understand it to the point where you can discuss it in depth, you'll have to do some work (such as take college courses, read textbooks, read some journal articles).

Ye that's what i had concluded all those years ago. I could be wrong but I don't think there has been any major developments that has changed anything in the last 10 years
There have indeed been significant developments in evolutionary biology, you just have to make the effort to stay up to speed.

Well i actually did say that it would probably require several mutations, not just one.
It's not about mutations, it's about how evolution doesn't work by a member of one order (flies or aardvarks) giving birth to offspring that are in a completely different order (wasps or whales).

I could just believe it but then it would be more like a religion based on faith
Remember, this was specifically about the existence of mutations that improve an organism. I showed you several documented examples of that and described how they are common (antibiotic resistance). So you don't need to take that on faith. It's observed reality.

Ye i know. Im not basing my conclusion solely on that. It just makes me, and others skeptical which is the way i approach science anyway.
Why? How many deliberate frauds and hoaxes can you name in evolutionary biology within the last 150 years? I can only think of a few. Plus, if that's your line of reasoning why then doesn't the same thing (existence of hoaxes) make you skeptical of Christianity, especially given how rife with frauds and hoaxes it is? Just recently the Bible Museum in Washington DC had to remove their most valuable artifacts (fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls) because they were fake. If that doesn't make you skeptical of Christianity, why does something like Piltdown Man make you skeptical of evolutionary biology?

IMO he always mixes the two when ive heard him speak. As soon as religion is injected into a scientific discussion it becomes inappropriate
My advice would be rely on someone other than Dawkins for info on evolutionary biology (if you're interested in it).

I remember at one stage i thought these opposing views are most likely not 100% right but have some aspect of truth to them
With religion its the claim that a creator exists, with ToE its the claim that evolution does exist in some form. I still think that
It largely depends on how you approach the issue and who you get your info from. If you go at it from a purely scientific angle and get your info from actual scientific resources, it's not something that's been in question for a very long time. IOW, from a scientific perspective it's a settled issue. OTOH if you go at it from a religious angle and get your info from religious sources, you'll likely come away with a different impression.
 

Justadude

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Of course I would. Have you ever heard me spouting the line that "God" is only god to the Christians? I personally believe that what most of us worship as "God" probably wouldn't even be recognized by the power that created ALL men, no matter what religion they follow. G-d is still the same God to the Jews as He is to us, They just choose to think things are following a different timeline than Christians do.

But, I was not raised as a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Shintoist, or a Taoist, or a Sikhist, or an American Indian, or any of the other names the creator of the Universe is known by. So, of course I relate to that "being" as the God I was raised hearing about.

I'm glad I asked rather than just assuming. Thanks for explaining!

How does any of the argumentative consternation men bicker about have a thing to do with trying to pretend the Universe just "naturally happened" with no intelligent force behind it, guiding things?
Um.....I'm not sure what that has to do with what we were discussing.
 

Justadude

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@Justadude I'll give u my thoughts on cosmology and astrophysics.
Remember, it's not my area of expertise nor is it something I spend much time staying up to date on.

The big bang theory leaves us with some questions.
What caused the explosion and where did all the matter come from

I made the analogy of the watchmaker b4. It was in reference to this, the explosion that seems to have formed a Rolex watch
It wasn't an explosion, it was an expansion. Those are quite different things.

To be fair they don't claim all the matter came with the bang but gradually over time. Either way, matter coming from nothing is impossible
It's important to keep in mind that most of this subject is based in mathematical models and how the physicists' goal is to find a way for their math to harmonize. So most of this comes down to "does the math work".

About 15 years ago astrophysicists thought they were on the verge of answering the biggest questions of the universe
Some even said they were about to find God through the magic of maths.

So after alerting everyone what did they find... Nothing but nothing
Astrophysicists were shattered.
I don't remember hearing anything like that, but I may have missed it.

Their answer is really lame in my opinion, its the multiverse.
This theory supposes that there is some kind of mechanism or phenomenon that is pumping out universes. But all these universes are incapable of sustaining life
Only our universe or one in trillions of universes are lucky enough to sustain life

The reason i find it to be lame is cos their maths was falsified so they came up with this story without any mathematical evidence
That's not my understanding of the situation. I'd understood it as the multiverse was a way to make the math work (and it did), but the problem was there's no way to test it in the real world.

They've just taken evolution and tried to apply it to space. Countless mutations will be dysfunctional before a good one appears
Its the same here, countless dysfunctional universes before one good one.
I think you have seriously misunderstood both.
 

Justadude

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Why do you keep talking about Muslims and other faiths? They have their own beliefs which you should ask them about but they don't recognise Jesus as God's only son; just another prophet but less important than Mohammed.
It's a (failed) attempt on my part to try and get folks like you to see your claims about your religious experiences from a different perspective. But as you and @amadeus have made clear to me, much like some of my Christian friends and family members you are primarily interested in sharing your beliefs and experiences with me, but not at all interested in hearing my POV on those beliefs and experiences.
 
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Pearl

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It's a (failed) attempt on my part to try and get folks like you to see your claims about your religious experiences from a different perspective. But as you and @amadeus have made clear to me, much like some of my Christian friends and family members you are primarily interested in sharing your beliefs and experiences with me, but not at all interested in hearing my POV on those beliefs and experiences.

You accuse me of primarily being only interested in sharing my beliefs experiences on a Christian forum; so yes I admit I like to share with those who have the same or similar beliefs and experiences. I like the fellowship too and don't understand why a non-Christian would want to share non-Christian views unless it is to disrupt. It is obvious that you don't like hearing from us the truth that you were brought up with so perhaps some Christian hurt you badly in the past. I hope you will be blessed by that God you don't believe in and come to see there is only one way to reach him and that is through Jesus who died on the cross for you.
 
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Nancy

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It's a (failed) attempt on my part to try and get folks like you to see your claims about your religious experiences from a different perspective. But as you and @amadeus have made clear to me, much like some of my Christian friends and family members you are primarily interested in sharing your beliefs and experiences with me, but not at all interested in hearing my POV on those beliefs and experiences.

Hi Justadude,
As a "once upon a time" Christian, don't you understand that once one believes they have found the Truth that, they stop endlessly looking here, there and everywhere! Especially if a Christian. Christians are to have no other gods before them... It's like Lot's wife looking back. All of us have had
differing experiences...from the world and from our new births. That's why I see Him as being so very personal, nobody else can really appeal to a non-Christian in the same way. Okay...I'm babbling.

God Bless you bro.