Understanding the Olivet Discourse

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CadyandZoe

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The fact that Messiah would be cut off on the 69th week? Daniel 9:25-26.

25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks,Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing.

7 weeks plus 62 weeks is 69 weeks.
Then verse 27

27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
Oh, I was thinking that the "after the sixty-two weeks" meant "in week 70."
 

CadyandZoe

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You missed the fact that there was 40 years from the Crucifixion until the Roman conquest. That is a time gap sufficient to blow apart the notion that the 70 'weeks' are consecutive, but it isn't the actual gap of 2000 years that we have had since that time.
Proved by Daniel 9:24b being not fulfilled yet.
Yes, the 40 year "gap" seems significant. Any idea why God would wait an additional 40 years?
 

Timtofly

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None of what you say makes a real argument. Sorry, I can't discuss "blah, blah, blah."
You continously discuss "blah, blah, blah."
Thanks for saying sorry, but why lie about it?

I am not having an argument. You are arguing impossiblilities. Of course, no one can argue impossiblilities. It is your argument though.

You continuously deny Preterist ideology, yet call those views your own. Why? There were Jews who when they saw the armies of Rome approaching in 70AD, who did heed the warning, and did flee from Jerusalem. None of those survived, for Rome hunted them down for 4 years, until all were dead. How can that be a partial saving event much less a full one? Yes, Jesus said it would happen. Yes events happened. No, no one was saved. The Temple was destroyed, but not the mount upon which it stood. That has not happened yet. Jesus said every stone that could be seen. Jesus said John the beloved would see the event in the last 7 years of a 2000 year age of the church. It is that time now. The soon "tomorrow" coming of the early church is no longer "tomorrow". It is now "today". It is going on now, and will be over in less than 3 years, because the prophets said 3.5 years of judgments. God shortened it from 7 to 3.5. Then Satan may be allowed 3.5 years, if that is God’s will. God is not willing that any should parish, but Calvinist will that it be. It would be the will of Calvinist themselves that God says, ok. Then the 3.5 years of blood shed, will be on their hands, just like the blood of Jesus was on the hands of the Jewish Sanhedren, when they condemned Jesus to the Cross.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes, the 40 year "gap" seems significant. Any idea why God would wait an additional 40 years?
Moses and the Israelites had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years, because they did not believe God. The church needed 40 years to establish itself, so the world would believe God.
 

Keraz

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Yes, the 40 year "gap" seems significant. Any idea why God would wait an additional 40 years?
My point is that the 70 'weeks', a total of 490 years is [was] not consecutive or continuous. Preterists love to fit the last 7 years into the first century, often making the Crucifixion the mid point; a twisting of Daniel 9:26 and a gross error.
Revelation makes it clear that the final 7 years will happen in the end times, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

Re the 40 years; I do agree with Timtofly, but be aware that it wasn't until 135 AD, that the Jews were finally conquered and killed or enslaved.
 

Randy Kluth

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You continuously deny Preterist ideology, yet call those views your own. Why?

I've answered that. Have you not personally received that message? I can look it up for you, if you haven't.

There were Jews who when they saw the armies of Rome approaching in 70AD, who did heed the warning, and did flee from Jerusalem. None of those survived, for Rome hunted them down for 4 years, until all were dead.

That's not the history I've read. I'll be happy to help you learn. But I'm not sure you're interested?

How can that be a partial saving event much less a full one? Yes, Jesus said it would happen. Yes events happened. No, no one was saved. The Temple was destroyed, but not the mount upon which it stood.

Jesus said the *temple* would not survive. Obviously, the mountain would remain.

That has not happened yet. Jesus said every stone that could be seen. Jesus said John the beloved would see the event in the last 7 years of a 2000 year age of the church.

Where is this said? I know you might be able to put 2 or 3 different passages together to conclude this, but where did Jesus *explicitly say* "Jesus said John the beloved would see the event in the last 7 years of a 2000 year age of the church."

It is that time now. The soon "tomorrow" coming of the early church is no longer "tomorrow". It is now "today". It is going on now, and will be over in less than 3 years, because the prophets said 3.5 years of judgments. God shortened it from 7 to 3.5. Then Satan may be allowed 3.5 years, if that is God’s will. God is not willing that any should parish, but Calvinist will that it be. It would be the will of Calvinist themselves that God says, ok. Then the 3.5 years of blood shed, will be on their hands, just like the blood of Jesus was on the hands of the Jewish Sanhedren, when they condemned Jesus to the Cross.

I'm not sure what Calvinism has to do with this? OK, it's 3.5 years--that's what I believe also.
 

Randy Kluth

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You missed the fact that there was 40 years from the Crucifixion until the Roman conquest. That is a time gap sufficient to blow apart the notion that the 70 'weeks' are consecutive, but it isn't the actual gap of 2000 years that we have had since that time.
Proved by Daniel 9:24b being not fulfilled yet.

There is no *gap* between Christ's crucifixion and the 70 AD destruction of the temple. Dan 9 places the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" immediately after the completion of the 70 Weeks, but not *within* the 70 Weeks.

And so, Dan 9 has the Messiah "cut off" after the 69 weeks, which is, by default, in the 70th Week. And terminating offerings and sacrifices in the midst of the 70th Week essentially completes the 70th Week in only a half-week.

It is only *after this 70th Week* that the city and the sanctuary are destroyed, when the abomination of desolation is set up. I believe that refers to the standing of a Roman army around the walls of Jerusalem, surrounding the temple. That is "standing in the holy place."

Jesus himself did not interpret the fall of Jerusalem as being within the 70 Weeks. He saw the fall of Jerusalem as happening *in the generation* of his compatriots. That is *not* a gap, but rather, a proximity to the end of the 70 Weeks prophecy.
 

Timtofly

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My point is that the 70 'weeks', a total of 490 years is [was] not consecutive or continuous. Preterists love to fit the last 7 years into the first century, often making the Crucifixion the mid point; a twisting of Daniel 9:26 and a gross error.
Revelation makes it clear that the final 7 years will happen in the end times, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

Re the 40 years; I do agree with Timtofly, but be aware that it wasn't until 135 AD, that the Jews were finally conquered and killed or enslaved.
I only got to Mesada. Even 4 years throws any interpretation off. Besides it is God's timetable, not the Romans, Jews, Judaism or any written history. There is still no proof, the 1st or 2nd century church even recognized 70AD, as anything but a Roman conquest and not a fulfillment of prophecy.
 

Timtofly

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I've answered that. Have you not personally received that message? I can look it up for you, if you haven't.
That's not the history I've read. I'll be happy to help you learn. But I'm not sure you're interested?
Jesus said the *temple* would not survive. Obviously, the mountain would remain.
Where is this said? I know you might be able to put 2 or 3 different passages together to conclude this, but where did Jesus *explicitly say* "Jesus said John the beloved would see the event in the last 7 years of a 2000 year age of the church."
I'm not sure what Calvinism has to do with this? OK, it's 3.5 years--that's what I believe also.

Luke 21:6 says no stone left unturned. Are you saying no one could see the temple mount and all the walls surrounding the temple?

Jesus does say, that it is no one's business if John were to see and experience the last 7 years leading up to the return. You all are stuck on visions and prophecy. Perhaps I am too literal, but it makes sense to me that John is living now, and recording the events first hand. Yes all the same verses about John not dying can say that John did not have to die, until after God sent him here and back. Now if you want proof look at Phillip in Acts. He was moved about as God needed. Now if you think that God cannot move humans through time, then don't think. Stay in darkness on the matter. Some things need faith, some need sight.

Calvanist have determined that only the elect are currently in the Lamb's book of life. That is the biggest lie of Satan. Probably bigger than infant baptism which only gives false hope, negating a free choice in the matter. Calvanist saying those enslaved by sin damns them to hell, will never ask God’s will to be done in saving every soul on earth into the kingdom of heaven. Now if any one can call them a whore church like the spiritual Babylon one, then they would all be damned themselves. It is a loose loose situation. All should be praying God’s will be done, and every single human alive this minute come to the knowledge of Salvation. If there was a global revival then there would be no need for Satan to send humans to their death in the middle of the week known as the Second Coming.
 

Randy Kluth

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Luke 21:6 says no stone left unturned. Are you saying no one could see the temple mount and all the walls surrounding the temple?

Jesus does say, that it is no one's business if John were to see and experience the last 7 years leading up to the return. You all are stuck on visions and prophecy. Perhaps I am too literal, but it makes sense to me that John is living now, and recording the events first hand. Yes all the same verses about John not dying can say that John did not have to die, until after God sent him here and back. Now if you want proof look at Phillip in Acts. He was moved about as God needed. Now if you think that God cannot move humans through time, then don't think. Stay in darkness on the matter. Some things need faith, some need sight.

I'm in the darkness if I don't agree with you? Not very diplomatic, brother. Disagreements can be had in a respectful manner, without the insults. Don't you agree?

No, none of that indicates that Jesus said John would be here until the 2nd Coming. He just said the time of his demise is up to the Father. He certainly said nothing about a 7 year period! And that's my point.

Calvanist have determined that only the elect are currently in the Lamb's book of life. That is the biggest lie of Satan. Probably bigger than infant baptism which only gives false hope, negating a free choice in the matter. Calvanist saying those enslaved by sin damns them to hell, will never ask God’s will to be done in saving every soul on earth into the kingdom of heaven. Now if any one can call them a whore church like the spiritual Babylon one, then they would all be damned themselves. It is a loose loose situation. All should be praying God’s will be done, and every single human alive this minute come to the knowledge of Salvation. If there was a global revival then there would be no need for Satan to send humans to their death in the middle of the week known as the Second Coming.

Sorry to say, I'm basically Calvinist in my leaning. I feel that in reality, only some people will choose for Salvation. Some will certainly not. The fact God said some will not choose for Salvation indicates that "the fix is in," in some ways. But there's no question that you're right--we should want *everybody* to be Saved, and we should reach out to *everybody* with the Gospel. Some will benefit from it, but not sell out to it. And some will sell out to it and be saved.

That being said, I was Infant Baptized, and believe in it, because I don't believe anybody should wait to have their children treated as Christians. If children are born and raised in Christian families, give them an Infant Dedication, which is the parents' dedicating themselves to raising their children in the Faith. It is not so much a Baptism as a Dedication. It works. No need to wait to be a Christian at age 30! That's when Jesus was baptized!
 

CadyandZoe

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My point is that the 70 'weeks', a total of 490 years is [was] not consecutive or continuous. Preterists love to fit the last 7 years into the first century, often making the Crucifixion the mid point; a twisting of Daniel 9:26 and a gross error.
Revelation makes it clear that the final 7 years will happen in the end times, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

Re the 40 years; I do agree with Timtofly, but be aware that it wasn't until 135 AD, that the Jews were finally conquered and killed or enslaved.
I personally think the 70 years ended the day they stoned Stephan. I can't prove that. We do see a marked change in direction in the book of Acts just after chapter 7.
 

Timtofly

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He certainly said nothing about a 7 year period! And that's my point.
Jesus said lots of things not recorded would be my point. Daniel said there was one separate set of Sevens. Revelation declares a 3.5 year time frame that is not part of a set of 7. It was never supposed to replace a set of 7. It is an unnecessary split of the set of 7. How can this 3.5 year interloping time period intersect a non-existing period of time? That is your dilemma, as my point is the interruption of both a 7 day week and a 7 year period. Revelation and Daniel say a week is interrupted. Satan is allowed to be in control of this 3.5 year interruption. It will be a time of desolation where Satan will bring to life his own image, an Adam like God did in Genesis 1:27. Satan will declare this false Adam as a false Christ. Does this have to happen because it did happen, or could God stop it like Abraham asked God to stop the destruction of Sodom?

As for 7 years. It has already been reckoned. Just because you do not have Scripture to prove or disprove that fact, cannot change that it is too late to do anything about it. There is less than 3 years, before the Second Coming and no belief or teaching can change history. Humans can only accept the fact or bury their heads in the sand.
 

CadyandZoe

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Jesus said lots of things not recorded would be my point. Daniel said there was one separate set of Sevens. Revelation declares a 3.5 year time frame that is not part of a set of 7. It was never supposed to replace a set of 7. It is an unnecessary split of the set of 7. How can this 3.5 year interloping time period intersect a non-existing period of time? That is your dilemma, as my point is the interruption of both a 7 day week and a 7 year period. Revelation and Daniel say a week is interrupted. Satan is allowed to be in control of this 3.5 year interruption. It will be a time of desolation where Satan will bring to life his own image, an Adam like God did in Genesis 1:27. Satan will declare this false Adam as a false Christ. Does this have to happen because it did happen, or could God stop it like Abraham asked God to stop the destruction of Sodom?

As for 7 years. It has already been reckoned. Just because you do not have Scripture to prove or disprove that fact, cannot change that it is too late to do anything about it. There is less than 3 years, before the Second Coming and no belief or teaching can change history. Humans can only accept the fact or bury their heads in the sand.
Daniel 9:24 begins "
Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city . . .

Does the 7-year tribulation relate to Daniel's people alone or to the rest of the world also?
 

Timtofly

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Daniel 9:24 begins "
Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city . . .

Does the 7-year tribulation relate to Daniel's people alone or to the rest of the world also?
It is all of the above. Jacob was a nation among nations. Jacob was part of the church. Not only was Jacob a chosen people, but they were still a part of the rest of the world, even the church.
 

Randy Kluth

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Jesus said lots of things not recorded would be my point. Daniel said there was one separate set of Sevens. Revelation declares a 3.5 year time frame that is not part of a set of 7. It was never supposed to replace a set of 7. It is an unnecessary split of the set of 7. How can this 3.5 year interloping time period intersect a non-existing period of time? That is your dilemma, as my point is the interruption of both a 7 day week and a 7 year period. Revelation and Daniel say a week is interrupted. Satan is allowed to be in control of this 3.5 year interruption. It will be a time of desolation where Satan will bring to life his own image, an Adam like God did in Genesis 1:27. Satan will declare this false Adam as a false Christ. Does this have to happen because it did happen, or could God stop it like Abraham asked God to stop the destruction of Sodom?

As for 7 years. It has already been reckoned. Just because you do not have Scripture to prove or disprove that fact, cannot change that it is too late to do anything about it. There is less than 3 years, before the Second Coming and no belief or teaching can change history. Humans can only accept the fact or bury their heads in the sand.

Yea, I've heard all this before. You are one who has been told not to date-set and yet stubbornly insist on doing so. And you would have everybody wait on your word, to see if it comes to pass. I won't bother. I know it's wrong, and a deception, and a lie. I couldn't put it in stronger terms. It is *false prophecy.*

The 3.5 years is a period of time that stands alone in the Bible, and is not connected to the 70 Weeks or to any other period of time that I know of. Antichrist will simply reign for 3.5 years. Maybe at the end of that period part of the world will turn against him--I don't know. I just know the Bible says he will draw many kings to Armageddon, where a great battle will take place.

I think perhaps that the 3.5 years of Antichristians rule is placed alongside the 3.5 years of Antiochus 4's terror committed against Israel, just to show the similarities. This is an attack on orthodox, conservative religion, and will eventually be destroyed, since they were given a limited amount of time to perform their apostasy and their rebellion against God.
 

Davy

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Forgive me. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking whether time gaps exist. I was asking you why you think a gap exists in Daniel's seventy week prophecy. Gabriel says, "your people have seventy weeks" It seems to me that when the seventy weeks expired, that was the end of it. But maybe I'm missing something.

A time gap does exist between the 69th seven and the 70th seven, the type of events that must be fulfilled it declares is how we know, and because 'it is written'. If you don't like that answer, then does it mean you don't like things that are 'written' in God's Word?
 

Timtofly

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Yea, I've heard all this before. You are one who has been told not to date-set and yet stubbornly insist on doing so. And you would have everybody wait on your word, to see if it comes to pass. I won't bother. I know it's wrong, and a deception, and a lie. I couldn't put it in stronger terms. It is *false prophecy.*

The 3.5 years is a period of time that stands alone in the Bible, and is not connected to the 70 Weeks or to any other period of time that I know of. Antichrist will simply reign for 3.5 years. Maybe at the end of that period part of the world will turn against him--I don't know. I just know the Bible says he will draw many kings to Armageddon, where a great battle will take place.

I think perhaps that the 3.5 years of Antichristians rule is placed alongside the 3.5 years of Antiochus 4's terror committed against Israel, just to show the similarities. This is an attack on orthodox, conservative religion, and will eventually be destroyed, since they were given a limited amount of time to perform their apostasy and their rebellion against God.
And I still cannot understand when it is clearly spelled out in Revelation. Did you not claim that the word antichrist is not found in Revelation once? There is a reason for that. There is no Antichrist in Revelation, unless it is in the Thunderings that have been sealed. Will reading them clear anything up? Only if they are read before the rapture. Unless all here in this forum are actually not going up in the rapture. Who knows? Then I guess all here will be dying to know what the Thunderings have to say.

So not sure why what I post is a prophecy, when I am just trying to point out, you all are wrong in every aspect of your teachings.
 

Keraz

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The 3.5 years is a period of time that stands alone in the Bible, and is not connected to the 70 Weeks or to any other period of time that I know of. Antichrist will simply reign for 3.5 years. Maybe at the end of that period part of the world will turn against him--I don't know. I just know the Bible says he will draw many kings to Armageddon, where a great battle will take place.
But Daniel 9:27 says the final 7 years will be split into 2 halves. Revelation 8:2 to 19:11 describes what will happen during the second half.
 

Randy Kluth

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And I still cannot understand when it is clearly spelled out in Revelation. Did you not claim that the word antichrist is not found in Revelation once? There is a reason for that. There is no Antichrist in Revelation, unless it is in the Thunderings that have been sealed. Will reading them clear anything up? Only if they are read before the rapture. Unless all here in this forum are actually not going up in the rapture. Who knows? Then I guess all here will be dying to know what the Thunderings have to say.

So not sure why what I post is a prophecy, when I am just trying to point out, you all are wrong in every aspect of your teachings.

I don't have a problem if you're just saying "you think" or "you anticipate" Christ to come within the next several years, or something like that. It sounded to me like you were date-setting, but I guess I was wrong. You should be more clear that this is your opinion, and just your guess. You're being more clear about that now, and I'm happy you're declaring it is *not* a prophecy!

My argument that the Antichrist is in Revelation is not the same argument as the word "Antichrist" is in the Revelation. Only John used the word Antichrist. Using different synonyms does not, logically, imply that each synonym refers to something different! By definition a "synonym" is a set of different words, all of which refer to the same thing!

There is a reason John used the word "Antichrist," and it was likely because he was not referring directly to the circumstances that will surround the "Little Horn" of Dan 7. That context involved a set of 7 kings and 10 nations. But John is concerned primarily with contemporary antichrists who would be of a more immediate concern to his generation than a future Antichrist.

The same John wrote the Revelation, and there described him as a "Beast," because in that book he is describing the circumstances that surround the actual Antichrist in his time. The "Beast" comes from Dan 7 itself, and refers to an evolution of the 4th Beast, which I believe was the Roman Empire. In the last days, Daniel wrote, this Beast would evolve into 7 kings and 10 nations, all united under the Little Horn.

The Little Horn, therefore, is the Antichrist which John speaks of. And the term reflects the character of the Little Horn in Dan 7, who opposes God and His people, boasting against God and persecuting God's People. This "Man of Sin" stands as an obstacle to the approaching descent from heaven of the Son of Man, bringing God's verdict against the Man of Lawlessness. As such, this Little Horn is opposing, or standing against (anti-) the Christ who is to come and establish God's Kingdom. He is an Anti-Christ!
 
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Timtofly

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I don't have a problem if you're just saying "you think" or "you anticipate" Christ to come within the next several years, or something like that. It sounded to me like you were date-setting, but I guess I was wrong. You should be more clear that this is your opinion, and just your guess. You're being more clear about that now, and I'm happy you're declaring it is *not* a prophecy!

My argument that the Antichrist is in Revelation is not the same argument as the word "Antichrist" is in the Revelation. Only John used the word Antichrist. Using different synonyms does not, logically, imply that each synonym refers to something different! By definition a "synonym" is a set of different words, all of which refer to the same thing!

There is a reason John used the word "Antichrist," and it was likely because he was not referring directly to the circumstances that will surround the "Little Horn" of Dan 7. That context involved a set of 7 kings and 10 nations. But John is concerned primarily with contemporary antichrists who would be of a more immediate concern to his generation than a future Antichrist.

The same John wrote the Revelation, and there described him as a "Beast," because in that book he is describing the circumstances that surround the actual Antichrist in his time. The "Beast" comes from Dan 7 itself, and refers to an evolution of the 4th Beast, which I believe was the Roman Empire. In the last days, Daniel wrote, this Beast would evolve into 7 kings and 10 nations, all united under the Little Horn.

The Little Horn, therefore, is the Antichrist which John speaks of. And the term reflects the character of the Little Horn in Dan 7, who opposes God and His people, boasting against God and persecuting God's People. This "Man of Sin" stands as an obstacle to the approaching descent from heaven of the Son of Man, bringing God's verdict against the Man of Lawlessness. As such, this Little Horn is opposing, or standing against (anti-) the Christ who is to come and establish God's Kingdom. He is an Anti-Christ!
Except that Revelation 13 talks about Satan the dragon giving power to his false prophet. The beast on the land is still the dragon on the seashore. This time in the form of a man with two horns of a lamb, yet speaking as a dragon. This man who has decieved humans for 2500 years. It is Satan himself creating his own image to bring to life. God allows Satan to do this. God allows Satan to bring that image to life. God allows Satan to have humanity either show the mark 666 on their foreheads and hands, or God allows Satan to cut their heads off. God allows Satan control during this 3.5 year period, and Satan will take all the advantage God will give him. But this only happens as a split in the week known as the Second Coming. There is no build up, because the years prior to the Second Coming is the harvest of the sheep and the goats. It is also the judgments of the seals, trumpets, and thunderings. The 4th seal alone states 1 quarter of the population is killed.

Yes it is soon. This year, next year, who knows? There are 6 trumpets and 7 thunderings to fit in less than 3 years. One of the trumpets last 5 months. Covid19 took about 5 months from one city in China to be a hot spot in New York City. 5 times 13 is 65 months. That is 5.4 years. Not all the judgments can be 5 months long. That will not fit in 3 years. So, no, I am not going to try to fit what Revelation says about the trib. into a specific time frame in the next 3 years, much less, all the details prophets in the OT mentioned.

If that is the burden of some here, and it is of God, not sure why it would need to contradict anything I have posted. But waiting for the antichrist is a big waste of time. We are not to look for false Christ nor false antichrist. Thus no one Antichrist. If that happens it will only happen in the 3.5 years mentioned in Revelation 13, not one second prior.