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Featured Understanding the Olivet Discourse

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, May 6, 2020.

  1. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    Check out my other post on Postrib Teaching (Who Jesus will Return For). Yes, angels do appear, at times, in the guise of men. But fallen angels do not seem to do this, or at least I haven't noticed it. I think that if Jesus referred to human antichrists, I should think that THE Antichrist is likewise human?

    The progression you refer to is the Dragon standing on the seashore, with the Beast (Antichrist) coming up out of the sea, presumably to take his place on the land. And then we have the 2nd Beast with 2 horns also taking his stand on the land, together with the 1st Beast (the Antichrist).

    Satan endows the 1st Beast with his own power. This does not make Satan the same as the Beast, but only the source of power for the Beast. The Beast is obviously both a human emperor and the empire he rules over, consisting of 7 kings and 10 nations. And so, the Beast refers to both emperor and empire, to both a single man and to the kingdom he rules over.

    The 2nd Beast is a mere support for the 1st Beast. And so they represent a coalition, perhaps between Satanic leader and Antichristian religion.
     
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  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    I said Satan is standing on the seashore, a dragon. The false prophet comes out of the sea, (humanity). Satan gives him the power. Then Satan is the beast on the land that looks like a man with 2 horns of a lamb. He still has the voice of a dragon, Satan. Then when the image is given life (a man/android, not a robot, but a human "machine" with emotions and a heart and mind, but no spirit or spirituality.) The "man" in the image of Satan, the false "Adam" and "Christ" of Satan himself.
     
  3. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    Yes, I know that's what you said. I was recounting the progression that the Scriptures give, to which you are referring. Your interpretation does not seem to match the progression that the Scriptures give, and that is the point.

    You seem to say all of these things are Satan: the dragon, the 1st Beast coming up out of the sea, and the 2nd Beast coming up out of the land, as well as the image this 2nd Beast ordered people to build. However, according to the account, these are all separate entities, Satan giving power to the 1st Beast and not actually *being* the 1st Beast.

    The 2nd Beast is separated from the 1st Beast, as shown in particular in Rev 16.13 and 19.20. They are the Beast and the False Prophet--two separate designations.

    Finally, since the 2nd Beast, the False Prophet, orders that an image be "set up," it appears obvious that this is not a person, but rather, some kind of idol. To say all 4 of these things are Satan is pure assertion without evidence.
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    Not hardly.

    Satan is standing on the seashore as a dragon. The False prophet emerges out of the sea/humanity. The Dragon is still on the seashore, but now as a man (not a dragon). However, the False Prophet now gives authority to Satan, and then Satan tells people to worship the false prophet, because Satan "raised up" this false prophet from a mortal wound.

    Then Satan was allowed certain things.
    Call down fire from heaven.
    Make an image like unto the false prophet.
    Breath life into the image.
    Then Satan was allowed to cause Adam's. curse branded on all of humanity to appear.

    That is what the Bible says with names.

    Now my interpretation. Satan as a dragon in Daniel's prophecy sent Antiochus Epiphanies the first time to attack the saints and offer a pig as the desolation of abomination. He died. Satan as a man keeps deceiving the Greeks as the god Pan. A man with two horns like a lamb. He then brings all Greek knowledge through to the Romans, and works behind the scenes. Working with Constantine, up until the present Vatican. Now we will see a reincarnation of a well known false prophet, Antiochus Epiphanies. Not an antichrist per se, but more a false prophet able to make sacrifice again in a Tabernacle. So Pan now being authorized by ae/fp is exposed, and causes all to worship the fp, because now Satan wants to create an image in his likeness and the likeness of the spiritual reincarnated fp, just like God said in Genesis 1:27. Satan is allowed to be just like God in the creation of a perfect earth formed human. Satan could only reincarnate the false prophet, but now he will bring to life his own creation in his own and the spiritual image of the fp. So yes Satan wants his own spiritual trinity. The religion of hinduism, the backing of the whore, his own son of Satan, a false human, and a false Christ.

    This does happen after the trib (the original 3 sets of judgments). It extends the week of the Second Coming, and then brings an extra 4th set of judgments. These vials or bowels are poured out during the last 3.5 days of the Second Coming. Almost in mockery of Satan and his first attempt to get rid of Jesus on the cross. Although all was God’s plan from before creation began.

    However. God's Will is that no one perishes. That all humanity repent in a global revival, would leave nothing left for Satan to be allowed to decieve. The Lord's Prayer. Thy kingdom come, thy Will be done, on earth (Salvation) as it is in Heaven.
     
  5. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    Like most churches throughout history, churches today compromise on what is taught to their flocks, preferring teachers who rationalise, allegorise, spiritualize or simply ignore the prophetic scriptures. The church that believes Bible prophecies concerning the last days can only be understood allegorically or that prophecy is anything less than factual, is easy prey for Satan’s craftiness.

    Satan, the great counterfeiter, deceives with half truths, often using scripture out of context, as he did with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. The same will be true with churches that say: yes these passages are literal, but they have no application to us, because they are trusting in the false assurance that they will be raptured away before those events occur. Once such people realize their great mistake, it will be too late to avoid the persecution of the Anti Christ. True believers in those churches will not lose their salvation, but they will endure suffering from which faithfulness to God and His Word, would have protected them. Thus genuine believers in the compromising churches may have to go through what Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse as the ‘Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world.’

    It is within the context of the Great Tribulation that Jesus warns the [allegorical type] Thyatiran and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

    So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation.
    James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

    On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His Christian people: great promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then their amazing gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9 It is those people, the holy ones of God, who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.

    Genesis 18:17-19 ....I shall not conceal from Abraham what I am about to do, because he must tell his descendants what is just and right.

    Just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the terrible Day of the Lord, that will strike all the earth, so the Lord has warned us to take care to discern His Word, in order that we may tell our children to keep the Way of the Lord and to be aware of His plans for this end time. Jeremiah 23:14

    2 Peter 3:7 & 10-12 The world is reserved for a Judgement of fire and the Day of the Lord’ wrath will come unexpectedly. On that Day, the heavens will disappear with a great noise, great flames of fire will bring all the earth into judgement. Since all things will be tested in this manner, think what sort of people you must be, what devout and dedicated lives you should live!
    This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth to come after the Millennium and does not match with the descriptions of the glorious Return of Jesus, as many prophecies clearly state that He will not be seen during this forthcoming fire judgement, the Sixth Seal.
    Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
    Ref: REB, NIV, KJV verses abridged.
     
  6. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    May I suggest that you learn to base every one of your assertions on explicit biblical statements--not interpretations? I can never agree with statements that have no objective evidence to prove they are true.

    I learned to approach things this way a long time ago. And you would do well to do so, since assertions that lack God's authority behind them will end up confusing things. And we just don't want to misrepresent God's word, right?
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    I am not sure what you want. I gave the points and then gave an interpretation. Revelation 13 has two parts. Satan and the false prophet. Then Satan and the image. There are only 3: FP, Satan, and image. Not sure what else I can say. If you are going to see all of Satan's desire, the image is Satan creating an Adam just like God did. Is not the dynamic of a first Adam and second Adam not in play? Genesis 1:27 is God's image. Revelation 13:14 is Satan's image. There is no other reason why an image would be mentioned in Revelation, unless anyone has a better reason? We have been inundated with perfect utopian movies of perfection yet people must die and pay the price. Even if Satan creates a perfect flawless society for 3.5 years, there is still in the background of a perfect society a dire situation of heads being cut off. Why can humans only image a perfect society that has an underlying flaw? Because it cannot happen, and not even for Satan. God has no judgments at all for 3.5 years. In fact there are only two witnesses in Jerusalem itself. They can defend themselves and cannot be killed. But Satan has the rest of the world as a perfect utopia. You really think Satan is going to use drudgery? No he is still going to deceive and perhaps be a perfect angelic example. Now you can say, this is just a made up movie scenario. But Satan has been inundating us with movies for decades. Why not make it a reality? He made a virtual reality universe, why not even make it possible to explore it further?
     
  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    I'm asking you to provide Scriptures that say exactly what you interpret them to mean. If you're going to say Satan created a man, then provide a Scripture that explicitly says that. If you're going to say that Satan has a utopia for 3.5 years, provide a Scripture that explicitly says that.

    Otherwise, you're just speculating, which is okay, as long as you don't claim it is biblical doctrine. To have biblical doctrine you must have explicit biblical statements saying exactly what you claim they say.

    If we don't all rely upon explicit biblical statements, we open the door to a massive amount of confusion. Every mother's son or daughter will have their own speculations, dreams, and visions. And that movie plot may or may not be real. The only way to have it real is by leaning on God's own words, and not our own speculations about those words.
     
  9. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    Satan does not create a man only God can. Satan can bring a created man to life. It is in Revelation 13. 2 Corinthians 11 says Satan can be an angel of light and his followers act and look just like true believers. Not sure why it is hard to see in Scripture what I pointed out. Satan does want the saints to suffer, but will grant anything, even tried to bribe Jesus Christ, all the best this world can offer. The temptation of Jesus. It is all there in Scripture. The problem is that even giving you verse after verse, only you can change your mind.
     
  10. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    I shouldn't change my mind unless God explicitly says to do so. No, you have not quoted me a biblical verse that says Satan brought a man to life--only that the 2nd Beast--the False Prophet--ordered an image to be made, which sounds very much like an idol. Then, he was enabled to bring this image to life. It brings to mind the story of Pinocchio, but I'm sure it's much deeper than that. And I must confess, I don't know what this really means!

    Rev 13.14 It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

    Though this is indeed explicit Scriptural truth I cannot base anything definitive on this passage simply because it is too obscure for me. I don't really know what it means. I would need confirmation from some other part of Scripture to know what it means and what we need to know about it.

    To say that Satan is an angel of light is far from saying that Satan is a man or can be a man. By definition he can't be a man, although it's true that he can possess a man. He possessed Judas Iscariot, and I believe he will possess the Antichrist. But it does not explicitly say that Satan *becomes* the Antichrist!

    So this isn't hard to understand. No, this is hard not to reject. Since it isn't biblical it's easy for me to reject it. You need real biblical proof that Satan can be or will be a man to say it is true and must be believed. To say those who reject this are hard -hearted or hard of hearing is pure bunk. You should *never* try to manipulate others into believing something that is not in God's word, and is only the product of your own imagination.
     
  11. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    I would have to reread the post of which I am accused, but I think I was referring to their own claims, not mine.

    It would be foolish of me to get people to change their minds on what I am claiming.

    The point is that a human man cannot live 2500 years. Paul said the man of sin has already been at work even before his time, including the time of Jesus. So, either Satan is acting as a man and can do so for 2500 years, or there is actually a 2500 year old man of sin. Your choice.

    Why 2500 years? Because that is the beginning of modern scientific thought, and a Greek proved the earth had a curve to it. In fact his estimate, of the size of the earth, is so close to today's actual figure, it would be, in one lingo, satanic.
     
  12. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    No, Paul said the "mystery of iniquity" has been around for a long time--not the "man of sin."
     
  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    2 Thessalonians 2:3-11
    3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.
    For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
    4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of Godand proclaim that he himself is God.
    5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things?
    6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time.
    7 For already this separating fromTorah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
    8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshuawill slay with the breath of his mouthand destroy by the glory of his coming.
    9 When this man who avoids Torahcomes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.
    10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them.
    11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie.

    This man is mentioned from the start, and included in his own plan as being the deception that is a mystery. It starts in Greece around 500, already at work. It has not stopped, because history has not recorded Satan being exposed. Also He who is holding back is still holding back, and Jesus has not destroyed "him". None of those things have been recorded in history.

    Verse 9 is Satan giving power to the false prophet. Just like the first beast of Revelation 13. But then the Adversary himself will be exposed as this 2500 year old deciever. The false prophet was the one who offered the desolation of abomination in Daniel's prophecy, but died. Revelation 13 says this false prophet is the one healed of a mortal wound.

    Paul only mentions two beings. The third entity is the image itself.
     
  14. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    The "mystery of iniquity" was seen by the Church Fathers to be the Roman Government. Daniel in ch. 2 saw the 4th Kingdom as being two solid legs until in its later stages it divides into two feet. And so, he saw in ch. 7 the Little Horn assume control over 7 kings and 10 nations.

    What therefore "restrains" the coming of Antichrist was the need for Rome to break down and divide into 10 nations. The order of the Roman Empire prevented a takeover by the Antichrist, even though the Caesars were in themselves a kind of Antichrist.

    The "mystery of iniquity" is the pre-Antichristian form of secularism in the Roman tradition that will eventually re-consolidate under the Antichrist. Just my thoughts.
     
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    It has been seen by many, many ways over the years. It has not been fulfilled yet. Since there is no antichrist, but only an image, and since we are not to look for those who claim to be Christ, why are we looking for those whom we are not to be looking for?

    Those who claim to be Christ are not. They are antichrist. We are not to look for them, but ignore them. They are the same person. No one will proclaim to be antichrist. They will proclaim to be Christ. Those are to be ignored, yet most all today are looking for the very thing that God through Paul says, "Do not Look for them, for they are false and lead many astray." It is only the false prophet and Satan who will be exposed. And after the church leaves in the 6th seal. Because then God is going to harvest the sheep and goats during the Trumpets.
     
  16. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    Where does Paul say, "Do not look for them?" We are to expect preliminary antichrists, who exist in every generation. It is our duty to meet the challenges in our own generation, and not speculate on future generations.

    We don't look for them with eager excitement. Rather, we prepare for the worst, knowing that they're coming. We have to expose them on behalf of those who want to be saved. It is in abandoning evil that men are saved. And so they have to know the evil so as to avoid it and be saved.

    The reason we are to expect a final Antichrist is so that we can look beyond our present circumstances to see a final resolution to the problem of iniquity on earth. The reign of the Antichrist is sort of Satan's last stand.
     
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be misunderstanding the issue. Christians are definitely not looking for the Antichrist (who will be a real person, not merely an image). However, when there is overwhelming Bible prophecy predicting the reign of the Antichrist, Christians must take it for what it is. Not try to dodge the issue.
     
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  18. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    There does not have to be a "Satan's last stand." It will be the churches fault though, since they are looking for Satan's last stand, instead of repentance and salvation.

    We should be praying for God's will to be done, not Satan's will. Your choice though.
     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    Noah preached for 100 years. He did not dodge the issue. It is humanity's choice still. Always will be. Whose side are you cheering for?
     
  20. dad

    dad Member

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    No. The Great Tribulation was a period of time in the very end and was of a fixed time. You conflate tribulations with the Great Tribulation, that will be unlike any other time.
     
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