I understand (I took the "you" to mean me when I now see it was a general statement).I wasn't implying that you did John. it was an added comment about what bothers me.
I agree with you, sorry for my misunderstanding.
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I understand (I took the "you" to mean me when I now see it was a general statement).I wasn't implying that you did John. it was an added comment about what bothers me.
There seems to be a movement (has been for awhile) towards Christian intellectualism. A person reads the Bible and when he determines the Bible is true then he is considered a Christian. Spiritual maturity becomes the acceptance of different Scriptures into a theological construct.
Can a person actually be saved under Christian intellectualism without hearing the voice of God, without God moving in their own heart in a meaningfully but subjective way?
I never offered a definition for intellectualism (I assume we can all reference dictionaries).hmm....this hardly defines intellectualism
more importantly, I see the opposite happening within Christianity and American society as a whole
The irony that I have experienced is that those Churches that speak negatively about denominations and theology, are the most divisive and separate in the Christian Community, and the amongst the most theologically-driven Churches I have known.I never offered a definition for intellectualism (I assume we can all reference dictionaries).
I have seen this go both ways. I have seen people argue spiritual truth us nothing more than accepting Scripture. And I gave seen others who demibish any doctrine or theology in favor of emotion.
Both are wrong, and both probably are ignorant of salvation itself. People like to have things their way.
I see both extremes happening.
True Christians do not judge other denominations. That said, we all guard doctrine and have disagreements over issues. We are human, after all.The irony that I have experienced is that those Churches that speak negatively about denominations and theology, are the most divisive and separate in the Christian Community, and the amongst the most theologically-driven Churches I have known.
One can label being intellectual as something bad when you revel in being unintelligent. Being proud of being "delightfully unrefined" is one thing; bragging about being basic and unwilling to learn is another.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..." Heb. 6:1
No probs as they say in Oz Land.I understand (I took the "you" to mean me when I now see it was a general statement).
I agree with you, sorry for my misunderstanding.
There seems to be a movement (has been for awhile) towards Christian intellectualism. A person reads the Bible and when he determines the Bible is true then he is considered a Christian. Spiritual maturity becomes the acceptance of different Scriptures into a theological construct.
Can a person actually be saved under Christian intellectualism without hearing the voice of God, without God moving in their own heart in a meaningfully but subjective way?
Excellent exposition on the logistics of conviction? ...you nailed it with: understanding and believing the wisdom of the Word, versus someone's subjective testimony of their perceived inspiration or epiphanies.I'm struggling to understand the meaning of this sentence.
Is not the bible the word of God? When I read the bible, am I not able to hear directly from Him through the revelation that He gives me of those scriptures. (Yes - I understand it's possible to read and not have revelation - but for me - when I hear from God, it's not a thought in my head that tells me something apart from scripture - but a revelation of what the scriptures mean).
If someone reads what the bible says - and believes what the bible said, and follows what the bible says - have they not heard from God, applied that scripture in their lives, and thus believed in Jesus?
I would find this to be more solid than someone saying that they "heard a voice" and that lead them to their decision. How do we know that the voice they heard was indeed God? We are told to test the Spirits in 1 John. I've seen numerous pastors all "hear from God" and say the direct opposite - which one is right - and more concerning - what spirit(s) are the others actually hearing from?
I put my trust in the word far more than I do any hearing of voices.
I was brought up in a Christian home - but my faith was really taught to me - until one day I questioned why I believe what I believe.
My reasoning was "I'm a Christian because I've been brought up as a Christian. If I was brought up in a Islamic home - would I be Islamic? How do I know that what I believe is indeed true?". This started me on a journey to question all I believed and search for evidence accordingly. Praise God that the evidence came back overwhelmingly to point to the bible being true and correct - unique among all - which led me to trust in what the bible says - and thus put my own faith in Christ. Not because I was doing what I was brought up - but because I searched for myself)
Great point, I think, John!There seems to be a movement (has been for awhile) towards Christian intellectualism. A person reads the Bible and when he determines the Bible is true then he is considered a Christian. Spiritual maturity becomes the acceptance of different Scriptures into a theological construct.
Can a person actually be saved under Christian intellectualism without hearing the voice of God, without God moving in their own heart in a meaningfully but subjective way?
I think it goes both ways. I would be equally skeptical of one leaning on Scripture while rejecting the work of the Spirit except to accept the Biblical text. Both are extremes (perhaps often reactionary to abuse of the opposing position).Great point, I think, John!
I personally, would put an emphasis on, not necessarily intellectualism or a pedantic understanding of God's Word, but wisdom.
I am extremely skeptical of anyone who claims to have the Spirit actively working within them, or sending them visions and inspirations, when they can barely articulate the mechanics of the Atonement, the chronology and significance of Eschatological events, or a sound Christology.
Paul would never have stumbled over these areas, the way that the so-called endowed believers do.
Again, I'm not espousing a mere pedantic understanding of the logistics of Christian Theology, but of profoundly understanding our faith, and glorifying God by revealing the wisdom behind His Word. To the point, that your understanding compels others to accept your position. If you are expositing on the Christian faith in a sound a reasonable manner, even the Jews or Muslims should be impressed and have few words to refute your position.
Perhaps, like you said, the extremes stem from a defensive, and thus, one-sided perspective.I think it goes both ways. I would be equally skeptical of one leaning on Scripture while rejecting the work of the Spirit except to accept the Biblical text. Both are extremes (perhaps often reactionary to abuse of the opposing position).
It is somewhat a difficult. If understanding compels one to believe then why the Bible? Why Christianity? I think you and I both can understand the Koran but hopefully neither of us would be compelled by understanding to believe that text.Perhaps, like you said, the extremes stem from a defensive, and thus, one-sided perspective.
My skepticism is derived from the fact, that the Spirit does not elicit blind acceptance of the text, but an understanding that compels one to believe. So that, if one is convinced of their endowment of this special gift, that to me, requires a great deal of humility and faith to receive, then where is the evidence? Is it not in the enlightenment, and consequent edification, that comes from understanding the Scriptures? Outside of miracles (for the non Cessationists), where else is the testimony or manifestation?
I cringe often when I read the posts of the so-called prophets and inspired Christians, on this forum. I see no wisdom or glory to God in what they are professing, ...often, the opposite.
Where does the proof lie?
I,on the other hand,am suspicious of anyone who thinks there is anything "mechanical" about the atonement.Great point, I think, John!
I personally, would put an emphasis on, not necessarily intellectualism or a pedantic understanding of God's Word, but wisdom.
I am extremely skeptical of anyone who claims to have the Spirit actively working within them, or sending them visions and inspirations, when they can barely articulate the mechanics of the Atonement, the chronology and significance of Eschatological events, or a sound Christology.
Paul would never have stumbled over these areas, the way that the so-called endowed believers do.
Again, I'm not espousing a mere pedantic understanding of the logistics of Christian Theology, but of profoundly understanding our faith, and glorifying God by revealing the wisdom behind His Word. To the point, that your understanding compels others to accept your position. If you are expositing on the Christian faith in a sound a reasonable manner, even the Jews or Muslims should be impressed and have few words to refute your position.
Well, without the Bible, no one would even be aware that there was a Gospel to adhere to. But once one hears the Word, then they are at a crossroad and they must decide how convincing what the heard was. The Koran must be challenged, as the Bible. I believe that wisdom is on the side of the Bible, not the Koran, nor Buddhism, nor Hinduism, etc... My understanding tells me that, and I can explain myself accordingly, ...at a minimum, at least to myself (articulation of profound things does present its difficulties at times).It is somewhat a difficult. If understanding compels one to believe then why the Bible? Why Christianity? I think you and I both can understand the Koran but hopefully neither of us would be compelled by understanding to believe that text.
Scripture really is simple to understand. The text is not difficult at all. I think perhaps the Spirit has something to do with our belief.
I am suspicious of anyone who doesn't understand the significance of understanding the mechanics, or logistics of the Atonement.I,on the other hand,am suspicious of anyone who thinks there is anything "mechanical" about the atonement.
I am suspicious of anyone who doesn't understand the significance of understanding the mechanics, or logistics of the Atonement.
For one, they would not have confused mechanical with mechanics. And therefore, they must have a seriously deficient or implausible Atonement Theory within their systematic theology (giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they actually have one).
I,on the other hand,am suspicious of anyone who thinks there is anything "mechanical" about the atonement.
Who explained to you that you were a sinner ?I thought I knew about the Nicene Creed before I got saved. The turning point came when I found out that I was a sinner and needed (the) Savior. (My home church never made that point very clear to me.)
I am skeptical that anyone can get into Heaven without first acknowledging that. And when it is not ignorance, it is pride.
Otherwise, my version of "Christian Intellectualism" consists of
"And you shall love the Lord your God
and 2 Corinthians 10:5, below.
- with all your heart,
- with all your soul,
- with all your mind, and
- with all your strength." Mark 12:30 NKJV
This is a good selection of scriptures for pompous pseudo-intellectuals who use words outside their measure.
1 Co 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
@CandidusThis is a good selection of scriptures for pompous pseudo-intellectuals who use words outside their measure.
1 Co 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.