I understand (I took the "you" to mean me when I now see it was a general statement).
I agree with you, sorry for my misunderstanding.
Christian intellectualism
- Thread starter John Caldwell
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I agree with you, sorry for my misunderstanding.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
hmm....this hardly defines intellectualism
more importantly, I see the opposite happening within Christianity and American society as a whole
I never offered a definition for intellectualism (I assume we can all reference dictionaries).
I have seen this go both ways. I have seen people argue spiritual truth us nothing more than accepting Scripture. And I gave seen others who demibish any doctrine or theology in favor of emotion.
Both are wrong, and both probably are ignorant of salvation itself. People like to have things their way.
I see both extremes happening.
The irony that I have experienced is that those Churches that speak negatively about denominations and theology, are the most divisive and separate in the Christian Community, and the amongst the most theologically-driven Churches I have known.
One can label being intellectual as something bad when you revel in being unintelligent. Being proud of being "delightfully unrefined" is one thing; bragging about being basic and unwilling to learn is another.
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..." Heb. 6:1
True Christians do not judge other denominations. That said, we all guard doctrine and have disagreements over issues. We are human, after all.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Huperetes
Member
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
While ignorance is not one of the fruits of the spirit there is an inherent danger in sheer intellectualism. Paul said that knowledge would puff us up and Solomon said it would increase our sorrow. Also,let us not forget that it was a desire for knowledge that got us in this mess in the first place:
Ge 3:5-6 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
I guess we can bring some ballast to this argument by citing:
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:
However, there is a context for that. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a big difference between pure factual intellectualism and having a knowledge of God's ways. If we don't have that knowledge we are doomed to wander in the wilderness:
Heb 3:10-11 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
So this brings us back to my first point...we must be led of the Spirit. And if we follow Jesus, many times we will be led into the wilderness to be tested:
Lk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Blessings
Excellent exposition on the logistics of conviction? ...you nailed it with: understanding and believing the wisdom of the Word, versus someone's subjective testimony of their perceived inspiration or epiphanies.
Great point, I think, John!
I personally, would put an emphasis on, not necessarily intellectualism or a pedantic understanding of God's Word, but wisdom.
I am extremely skeptical of anyone who claims to have the Spirit actively working within them, or sending them visions and inspirations, when they can barely articulate the mechanics of the Atonement, the chronology and significance of Eschatological events, or a sound Christology.
Paul would never have stumbled over these areas, the way that the so-called endowed believers do.
Again, I'm not espousing a mere pedantic understanding of the logistics of Christian Theology, but of profoundly understanding our faith, and glorifying God by revealing the wisdom behind His Word. To the point, that your understanding compels others to accept your position. If you are expositing on the Christian faith in a sound a reasonable manner, even the Jews or Muslims should be impressed and have few words to refute your position.
I think it goes both ways. I would be equally skeptical of one leaning on Scripture while rejecting the work of the Spirit except to accept the Biblical text. Both are extremes (perhaps often reactionary to abuse of the opposing position).
Perhaps, like you said, the extremes stem from a defensive, and thus, one-sided perspective.
My skepticism is derived from the fact, that the Spirit does not elicit blind acceptance of the text, but an understanding that compels one to believe. So that, if one is convinced of their endowment of this special gift, that to me, requires a great deal of humility and faith to receive, then where is the evidence? Is it not in the enlightenment, and consequent edification, that comes from understanding the Scriptures? Outside of miracles (for the non Cessationists), where else is the testimony or manifestation?
I cringe often when I read the posts of the so-called prophets and inspired Christians, on this forum. I see no wisdom or glory to God in what they are professing, ...often, the opposite.
Where does the proof lie?
It is somewhat a difficult. If understanding compels one to believe then why the Bible? Why Christianity? I think you and I both can understand the Koran but hopefully neither of us would be compelled by understanding to believe that text.
Scripture really is simple to understand. The text is not difficult at all. I think perhaps the Spirit has something to do with our belief.
Huperetes
Member
I,on the other hand,am suspicious of anyone who thinks there is anything "mechanical" about the atonement.
Well, without the Bible, no one would even be aware that there was a Gospel to adhere to. But once one hears the Word, then they are at a crossroad and they must decide how convincing what the heard was. The Koran must be challenged, as the Bible. I believe that wisdom is on the side of the Bible, not the Koran, nor Buddhism, nor Hinduism, etc... My understanding tells me that, and I can explain myself accordingly, ...at a minimum, at least to myself (articulation of profound things does present its difficulties at times).
I believe that you are saying, that a Christian's intellect is stimulated and guided by the Spirit, in order to understand and believe in the first place? Kind of like prevenient grace or monergism?
I am suspicious of anyone who doesn't understand the significance of understanding the mechanics, or logistics of the Atonement.
For one, they would not have confused mechanical with mechanics. And therefore, they must have a seriously deficient or implausible Atonement Theory within their systematic theology (giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they actually have one).
Huperetes
Member
This is a good selection of scriptures for pompous pseudo-intellectuals who use words outside their measure.
1 Co 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Describing how something works in detail is describing the "mechanics" of it. Go ahead, be suspicious... ignorance is no virtue.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
We are seeing the extremes in the argument stated here. We have:
A). Those that resist knowledge thinking that there is something spiritual and virtuous in "simplicity." This is the hinge-pin of their "theology."
B). There are some I am sure that have a lot of knowledge, perhaps never being saved, yet going through Bible College and graduating to teaching the bible and theology without any personal experience.
Those are our extremes: I have met people more in the middle:
A). Saying that we should stick to the "simple" basic Gospel and not make it difficult.
B). Saying that a Christian should have a hunger to know the True God, to know the truth about what He teaches, and to study to show ourselves approved.
The simplicity of the Gospel is definitely necessary. We are called to preach the Gospel! I do not know many so-called "Intellectuals" that would deny it... but, what exactly is the "Gospel"? Is it really all that "simple"? Look through the Forum and you will find that this is not as simple of an answer as you would want! Personally, I have known a few "anti-intellectuals" (those that demand simplicity) that rebuked me because I said something which went against what they believed. They got "saved," and that is all they needed! It "works for them" so don't throw any Biblical facts into the mix and mess it up! Do not tell them anything that might question the accuracy of what they may believe!
True belief has some good and bad characteristics. If you truly believe something, your life is changed by it. You make changes in your life based upon that belief. The tendency is to never question what you believe. You buy books that affirm, not question what you believe. You gravitate to preachers who will tickle your ears and confirm your bias. Why not? What you believe is the Truth!
So, if someone comes along after a few years, and throws valid Biblical facts at you, and these truths question or alter your current belief; it is crushing! You can either accept and change; or reject and stay in your comfort zone. Most people resist changing because they would have to admit to people that they were wrong (pride), and if the change is deep enough, they may even have to scrap the entire belief system they had for something new! This is asking a lot! For many, to change to reconcile your life to the facts is too high of a cost.
"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it." 2 Cor. 11:3-4.
When we look at the extremes at both ends, Paul gives us something that puts us closer to the middle.
At first glance it looks like Paul is saying that we should not go beyond the simple. But reading further we see that what he writes is not all that simple! Yes! What is needed for someone to step into the light, to get "saved" should be simple! But God is not done with that person after their conversion.
"Another Jesus..." One does not have to go far in this world to realize that there are many different kinds of "Jesus," and they are not the "same" Jesus! Is he God? Just a good Teacher? A Prophet? A good Man? Do you have the Real Jesus?
Does it matter? Yes! Paul says it does! If you have the wrong Jesus, you are worshipping an Idol. How do you know? Is this "simple"?
"A different spirit..." There are many that claim that the Spirit leads them into all truth, and what the Bible says does not matter. the problem is, no two people "led by the Spirit" have the same understanding and "Truth" as the other one! How do we know... is it that "simple"? If it were not for what the Scriptures teach, how else would we know if someone is listening to the Holy Spirit and not "another spirit"?
"A different gospel..." Clearly, this is in debate every day on the Forum! How do you know if you have the right "Gospel," and not a "Different Gospel"? Just because yours "works for you" is no proof, because everyone that disagrees with you has a "Gospel" that "works for them!" If we did not look at Scripture and go beyond "simplicity," or study to know what Scripture says, how can we be assured that what we believe is an accurate "Gospel" or "another gospel"?
Paul writes both sides of the truth; there is the "essential" Gospel, and there is the intellectual work of being aligned with truth. Once someone is "saved," then God expects growth.
This is just breaking down the difference between true believers and false teachers. It is the difference between a Babe in Christ, and a Mature Christian. Between milk, and meat. Something is wrong if a Believer only wants milk! This is fine if they have not been a Believer very long, but when it becomes a passionate Theory not to advance, it becomes a problem.
Anyone that thinks that you must believe their entire theological system to be "saved," is preaching "another gospel." This does not mean that their "system" is wrong, but that God has kept the Gospel simple. It is not intellectual assent to truths that saves us, but trust in the work and Person of Jesus Christ on the Cross to save us.
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@Candidus
And let me guess Huperetes, you're one of those who are convinced that you have God's Holy Spirit within you, guiding you in interpreting Scripture? For, I assume that that was the implication of your initial post to me. Typically I find that those who claim that they do, are the worst exegetes around.
You read where I stated that if this were the case, we would expect to see a profound understanding of God's Word, in all or many facets of theology. To the point of being able to articulate one's soteriology, eschatology, christology and so on, in a clear and glorifying manner (to God).
The Atonement, being a very unique and crucial doctrine in Christianity, tends to elude a lot of it's adherents in comprehension and explanation.
The mechanics being, the significance or necessity of a sacrifice, and one without blemish. And, the requirement of a fallible and mortal man, and who was expiated and how, and to what extent, and who was propitiated and how. And, whether or not Christ was forsaken on the Christ, or perceived to be, etc....
There are many Atonement theories out there, and by many scholar's admission, they all seem to have deficiencies. Not one, yet proposed, is fully comprehensive in explaining all the logistics of the actions taken by Jesus, and their significance, that align with all the relevant passages in Scripture.
Christianity is the only religion where redemption is the paramount principle in its theology, or at least, this is what makes it unique from the rest. Therefore, it's an odd predicament that we have so many adherents that are perplexed in their understanding of it, and incapable of offering a sound and reasonable delineation of it.
Would anyone who has a spiritual endowment from God, care to offer any insight into this quandary?
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