Christian intellectualism

[Sabertooth]

Who explained to you that you were a sinner ?

My uncle did, using The Four Spiritual Laws.
(That it was a condition rather than a specific act.)

 

[DNB]

This is a good selection of scriptures for pompous pseudo-intellectuals who use words outside their measure.

1 Co 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Well how would you know what is in or outside anyone's measure, you don't even know what the word mechanics mean?
And if that weren't bad enough, after all that was said and explained, all that you can do is erroneously and misguidedly, take issue with the word 'mechanic'.
You clearly shouldn't engage in matters beyond your comprehension!

 

[DNB]

We are seeing the extremes in the argument stated here. We have:

A). Those that resist knowledge thinking that there is something spiritual and virtuous in "simplicity." This is the hinge-pin of their "theology."

B). There are some I am sure that have a lot of knowledge. Perhaps never being saved, yet going through Bible College and graduating to teaching the bible and theology without any personal experience.

Those are our extremes: I have met people more in the middle:

A). Saying that we should stick to the "simple" basic Gospel and not make it difficult.

B). Saying that a Christian should have a hunger to know the True God, to know the truth about what He teaches, and to study to show ourselves approved.

The simplicity of the Gospel is definitely necessary. We are called to preach the Gospel! I do not know many so-called "Intellectuals" that would deny it... but, what exactly is the "Gospel"? Is it really all that "simple"? Look through the Forum and you will find that this is not as simple of an answer as you would want! Personally, I have known a few "anti-intellectuals" (those that demand simplicity) that rebuked me because I said something which went against what they believed. They got "saved," and that is all they needed! It "works for them" so don't throw any Biblical facts into the mix and mess it up! Do not tell them anything that might question the accuracy of what they may believe!

True belief has some good and bad characteristics. If you truly believe something, your life is changed by it. You make changes in your life based upon that belief. The tendency is to never question what you believe. You buy books that affirm, not question what you believe. You gravitate to preachers who will tickle your ears and confirm your bias. Why not? What you believe is the Truth!

So, if someone comes along after a few years, and throws valid Biblical facts at you, and these truths question or alter your current belief; it is crushing! You can either accept and change; or reject and stay in your comfort zone. Most people resist changing because they would have to admit to people that they were wrong (pride), and if the change is deep enough, they may even have to scrap the entire belief system they had for something new! This is asking a lot! For many, to change to reconcile your life to the facts is too high of a cost.

"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it." 2 Cor. 11:3-4.

When we look at the extremes at both ends, Paul gives us something that puts us closer to the middle.

At first glance it looks like Paul is saying that we should not go beyond the simple. But reading further we see that what he writes is not all that simple! Yes! What is needed for someone to step into the light, to get "saved" should be simple! But God is not done with that person after their conversion.

"Another Jesus..." One does not have to go far in this world to realize that there are many different kinds of "Jesus," and they are not the "same" Jesus! Is he God? Just a good Teacher? A Prophet? A good Man? Do you have the Real Jesus?

Does it matter? Yes! Paul says it does! If you have the wrong Jesus, you are worshipping an Idol. How do you know? Is this "simple"?

"A different spirit..." There are many that claim that the Spirit leads them into all truth, and what the Bible says does not matter. the problem is, no two people "led by the Spirit" have the same understanding and "Truth" as the other one! How do we know... is it that "simple"? If it were not for what the Scriptures teach, how else would we know if someone is listening to the Holy Spirit and not "another spirit"?

"A different gospel..." Clearly, this is in debate every day on the Forum! How do you know if you have the right "Gospel," and not a "Different Gospel"? Just because yours "works for you" is no proof, because everyone that disagrees with you has a "Gospel" that "works for them!" If we did not look at Scripture and go beyond "simplicity," or study to know what Scripture says, how can we be assured that what we believe is an accurate "Gospel" or "another gospel"?

Paul writes both sides of the truth; there is the "essential" Gospel, and there is the intellectual work of being aligned with truth. Once someone is "saved," then God expects growth.

This is just breaking down the difference between true believers and false teachers. It is the difference between a Babe in Christ, and a Mature Christian. Between milk, and meat. Something is wrong if a Believer only wants milk! This is fine if they have not been a Believer very long, but when it becomes a passionate Theory not to advance, it becomes a problem.

Anyone that thinks that you must believe their entire theological system to be "saved," is preaching "another gospel." This does not mean that their "system" is wrong, but that God has kept the Gospel simple. It is not intellectual assent to truths that saves us, but trust in the work and Person of Jesus Christ on the Cross to save us.

Great exposition candidus! Yes, I agree that both levels of understanding are sufficient for salvation, ...provided both are sincere and include the fundamentals - sin, repentance & grace through Christ.

I guess then, my position was differentiating between an edified and inspiring Christian, versus merely a saved one who lacks fruit.
Again, for Paul to be as efficacious as he was, he undeniably understood the workings of God's Word, from the Old Covenant to the New. I would say the same for all the Apostles of the early Church, and even after, that those who had a major impact on converting others, either through their wisdom or their actions, had very few blind spots in their theology. Adding, that with wisdom and understanding, comes a stronger conviction, and thus, edification. One does marvel at God, when we start to comprehend how incredible and mysterious His ways are.

Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Even a child can understand something as 'simple' as a free get-out-of-jail card. But to understand the holiness and justice behind it, and why faith supersedes Law, elicits a more effective Christian, one who compels others in both words and action.

 

[Candidus]

Great exposition candidus! Yes, I agree that both levels of understanding are sufficient for salvation, ...provided both are sincere and include the fundamentals - sin, repentance & grace through Christ.

I guess then, my position was differentiating between an edified and inspiring Christian, versus merely a saved one who lacks fruit.
Again, for Paul to be as efficacious as he was, he undeniably understood the workings of God's Word, from the Old Covenant to the New. I would say the same for all the Apostles of the early Church, and even after, that those who had a major impact on converting others, either through their wisdom or their actions, had very few blind spots in their theology. Adding, that with wisdom and understanding, comes a stronger conviction, and thus, edification. One does marvel at God, when we start to comprehend how incredible and mysterious His ways are.

Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Even a child can understand something as 'simple' as a free get-out-of-jail card. But to understand the holiness and justice behind it, and why faith supersedes Law, elicits a more effective Christian, one who compels others in both words and action.

When I was introduced to Christ, and God convicted me and drew me to Himself, I received His gift of salvation. This was my experience. I was an Atheist before, slowly brought to be short period of less than a month as an Agnostic, and then became a Christian.

To say at that moment I was a dumb bucket of rocks concerning anything else about the Bible, God and Christianity... would have been a compliment! Yet, I did not want to be ignorant! I wanted to know more about God and what was Truth! I soon found that not all Christians believed the same things! I thought is was only about "style" and not content! Boy was I confused!

God saved me in my total ignorance and the hunger He placed in me for Truth has led to years of study.

I would not call myself an "Intellectual," but a thinking human being. Those that demand "simplicity" and hate "intellectualism" have not experienced what anyone who has tried to dig deep to find the truth has discovered; that is, that the more you know, the more you realize that you don't know! Back when I was "simple..." Ignorance was bliss!

 

[DNB]

When I was introduced to Christ, and God convicted me and drew me to Himself, I received His gift of salvation. This was my experience. I was an Atheist before, slowly brought to be short period of less than a month as an Agnostic, and then became a Christian.

To say at that moment I was a dumb bucket of rocks concerning anything else about the Bible, God and Christianity... would have been a compliment! Yet, I did not want to be ignorant! I wanted to know more about God and what was Truth! I soon found that not all Christians believed the same things! I thought is was only about "style" and not content! Boy was I confused!

God saved me in my total ignorance and the hunger He placed in me for Truth has led to years of study.

I would not call myself an "Intellectual," but a thinking human being. Those that demand "simplicity" and hate "intellectualism" have not experienced what anyone who has tried to dig deep to find the truth has discovered; that is, that the more you know, the more you realize that you don't know! Back when I was "simple..." Ignorance was bliss!

I guess that there is a place or calling for all levels of Christians. As authentic and powerful as your conversion was, one would not have immediately put you in a leadership position, but you could have served the Church in some other way.
In my experience, if I can speak objectively and insightfully enough on it, it was the wisdom of the Cross that convicted me i.e. man's constant failures, and God's grace. I never experienced an endowment of the Spirit, nor a personal character change - outside of what any impartation of wisdom would elicit. To the point, that I would imagine that 'through your years of study', you are definitely a better person, and better Christian for it?

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[John Caldwell]

Well, without the Bible, no one would even be aware that there was a Gospel to adhere to. But once one hears the Word, then they are at a crossroad and they must decide how convincing what the heard was. The Koran must be challenged, as the Bible. I believe that wisdom is on the side of the Bible, not the Koran, nor Buddhism, nor Hinduism, etc... My understanding tells me that, and I can explain myself accordingly, ...at a minimum, at least to myself (articulation of profound things does present its difficulties at times).

I believe that you are saying, that a Christian's intellect is stimulated and guided by the Spirit, in order to understand and believe in the first place? Kind of like prevenient grace or monergism?

And without the Spirit the gospel would be foolishness to everyone.

These types of arguments are pretty much philosophical, like can God make a round square.

 

[DNB]

How can you claim to be "saved" when you have absolutely no idea who Jesus is? You have a mechanical faith that results in a babbling robot zombie pseudo-christian. You simply regurgitate some google search results in the vain attempt to appear as some sort of expert. You will be surprised when the "simple" people with a "simple" gospel sit with Jesus while you are cast out into outer darkness, because you thought the admission ticket came from passing some theology test.

Unless you repent and find life. I pray that you do.

Sorry Huperetes, my mistake, I thought that I was talking to a sane person.

 

[Huperetes]

I never experienced an endowment of the Spirit, nor a personal character change - outside of what any impartation of wisdom would elicit.

I guess this explains your lack of fruit as you continue to pursue the tree of knowledge.

 

[DNB]

And without the Spirit the gospel would be foolishness to everyone.

These types of arguments are pretty much philosophical, like can God make a round square.

Ok, but you are professing at least, the principle of prevenient grace. That the Spirit must allow the recipient to either, understand or accept what is being imparted to him.
If so, I don't believe that that was my experience at all, but rather the opposite. I just finished telling candidus what convicted me - the wisdom of the cross. That is, I could relate to man's need for redemption, and from a source outside of his own abilities, and then consequently, God's grace.
So, I from the position that wisdom comes first, and then faith and humility allows for the Spirit to be endowed upon a believer. For it is a gift for the believer, not the unbeliever - that is, believing comes first.

 

[DNB]

I guess this explains your lack of fruit as you continue to pursue the tree of knowledge.

Like I've always, those who profess to have the Spirit, have the weakest comprehension of spiritual matters.
Huperetes, I am not joking here, you are an absolute nut-case!

 

[Cristo Rei]

Sorry guys but can someone please give me the definition of Christian intellectualism...
Is it someone who is well versed in scripture???

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That got so ugly so quick...

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only. good topic,
it's not the intellect, but the down out right "rebellionism". people hate change, especially when it's them who are in need of change.

but God has been, and is alway speaking to people but it's people who don't want to hear the truth.

PICJAG.

 

[Waiting on him]

Sorry guys but can someone please give me the definition of Christian intellectualism...
Is it someone who is well versed in scripture???

It is a quest for those who seek the admiration of men. I'm beginning to think it's homosexual in nature.

 

[Cristo Rei]

It is a quest for those who seek the admiration of men. I'm beginning to think it's homosexual in nature.

I don't quite understand, the admiration of men, homosexuality, like what...

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't quite understand, the admiration of men, homosexuality, like what...

1 Corinthians 13:2 KJV
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

It's these guys!

 

[APAK]

I don't quite understand, the admiration of men, homosexuality, like what...

Christian Intellectualism as it is thrown around here on this thread is not the academic version of the trend that essentially began in the 1940s that died down by the 1970s. It still exists today for another sinister reason ...IMO

It was to brainstorm and chat religious-secular views of scripture and God that lacked true genuine faith and salvation, IMO. These people that engaged in this banter and debate were secular ignorant snobs in my book. Many IMO were not true believers in the first place. It was a process of compromising faith with secular ideas of God and to integrate and dominate with these novel 'Christian' ideas for all the world to admire.

It is used today by many religious leaders and religious intellectual types to ultimately unite all religions and faiths ..something @Brakelite2 knows a great deal about..part of the Global religious governance plan.

On this site however, the definition of Christian Intellectualism seems to focus on Christians who use their intellect and gifted abilities to write prose efficiently and effectively, on spiritual matters, and scripture and the like, because they can. It is then seen by a few that this indicates a showoff or a skite is among us. Some even accuse these same folks as being fake believers. I think that these 'stone throwers' need to take a deep breath and chill out before accusing folks of things they really do not know. And similarly, maybe those that can think more clearly on the subject of Christ, scripture and doctrine, who also write very neatly, professionally with an air of sophistication, to comprise a bit and speak to communicate more effectively with their known audience, as seen in their text or comments, so everyone can feel they are on equal footing..in the SAME peace, love and truth..makes for a mutual edifying experience I would think...

Bless you,

APAK

 

[DNB]

Christian Intellectualism as it thrown around here on this thread is not the academic version of the trend that essentially began in the 1940s that died down by the 1970s. It still exists today for another sinister reason ...IMO

It was to brainstorm and chat religious-secular views of scripture and God that lacked true genuine faith and salvation, IMO. These people that engaged in this banter and debate were secular ignorant snobs in my book. Many IMO were not true believers in the first place. It was a process of compromising faith with secular ideas of God and to integrate and dominate with these novel 'Christian' ideas for all the world to admire.

It is used today by many religious leaders and religious intellectual types to ultimately unite all religions and faiths ..something @Brakelite2 knows a great deal about..part of the Global religious governance plan.

On this site however, the definition of Christian Intellectualism seems to focus on Christians who use they intellect and gifted abilities to write prose efficiently and effectively, on spiritual matters, and scripture and the like, because they can. It is then seen by a few that this indicates a showoff or a skite is among us. Some even accuse these same folks as being fake believers. I think that these 'stone throwers' need to take a deep breath and chill out before accusing folks of things they really do not know. And similarly, maybe those that can think more clearly on the subject of Christ, scripture and doctrine, who also write very neatly, professionally with an air of sophistication, to comprise a bit and speak to communicate more effectively with their known audience, as seen in their text or comments, so everyone can feel they are on equal footing..in the SAME peace, love and truth..makes for a mutual edifying experience I would think...

Bless you,

APAK

Hi @Cristo Rei , if I may offer my opinion too. First, disregard waitingforhim's remark, it was more confusing than enlightening.
What APAK stated above, is, I trust, 100% correct, as far as the branch of Christianity known as Intellectualism is concerned.
But, after a few exchanges with the OP, and APAK may correct me if necessary, is that the OP is comparing the differences between a simple head-knowledge of Christ i.e. just understanding all the mechanics and doctrines of the faith, that pertains to the rationality of it, against that of a spiritual encounter and insight. Possibly, it may also refer in principle to the Reformed doctrine of prevenient grace, that is, man in his fallen state cannot comprehend spiritual matters, and thus, God must endow one with the Spirit before a conversion can take place?

Either way, the controversy lies between one having a mere theological understanding, as opposed to one who feels that the Spirit has somehow inspired them to accept the Gospel, and the character change that comes with the Spirit's power. ...if I'm not mistaken?
.

 

[John Caldwell]

Ok, but you are professing at least, the principle of prevenient grace. That the Spirit must allow the recipient to either, understand or accept what is being imparted to him.
If so, I don't believe that that was my experience at all, but rather the opposite. I just finished telling candidus what convicted me - the wisdom of the cross. That is, I could relate to man's need for redemption, and from a source outside of his own abilities, and then consequently, God's grace.
So, I from the position that wisdom comes first, and then faith and humility allows for the Spirit to be endowed upon a believer. For it is a gift for the believer, not the unbeliever - that is, believing comes first.

But now we are talking about two different things. Scripture does contain the gospel, but Scripture itself also contains the history of Israel, praises, instructions to the Churches.

Looking at salvation then I still have to disagree. To those who believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. This still points to God as it is His power He is using. To those who do not believe the gospel is foolishness. I believe that the test of the gospel combined with your intellect are not the only elements to your salvation. I believe God was actively involved. This is based on my experience,not yours, so I understand if you disagree. I guess I'd simply say that I believe you missed Something.

 

[Waiting on him]

Lol, DOA said theo--- logical