Christian intellectualism

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APAK

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Hi @Cristo Rei , if I may offer my opinion too. First, disregard waitingforhim's remark, it was more confusing than enlightening.
What APAK stated above, is, I trust, 100% correct, as far as the branch of Christianity known as Intellectualism is concerned.
But, after a few exchanges with the OP, and APAK may correct me if necessary, is that the OP is comparing the differences between a simple head-knowledge of Christ i.e. just understanding all the mechanics and doctrines of the faith, that pertains to the rationality of it, against that of a spiritual encounter and insight. Possibly, it may also refer in principle to the Reformed doctrine of prevenient grace, that is, man in his fallen state cannot comprehend spiritual matters, and thus, God must endow one with the Spirit before a conversion can take place?

Either way, the controversy lies between one having a mere theological understanding, as opposed to one who feels that the Spirit has somehow inspired them to accept the Gospel, and the character change that comes with the Spirit's power. ...if I'm not mistaken?
.
I concur with your response. The Spirit must FIRST set the table in one's spirit by the Spirit and ONLY then the mental attitude, knowledge and wisdom takes root and grows to maturity...this the intellectualism of a believer that the Spirit desires....I forgot to add this critical point you made here DNB...quite astute of you

APAK
 
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DNB

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But now we are talking about two different things. Scripture does contain the gospel, but Scripture itself also contains the history of Israel, praises, instructions to the Churches.

Looking at salvation then I still have to disagree. To those who believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. This still points to God as it is His power He is using. To those who do not believe the gospel is foolishness. I believe that the test of the gospel combined with your intellect are not the only elements to your salvation. I believe God was actively involved. This is based on my experience,not yours, so I understand if you disagree. I guess I'd simply say that I believe you missed Something.
ok, fair enough John. Of course, for now, I still hold to my position, as maybe there's more to the story than I explained, in order to justify my view ....as in years of insight that lead up to this. ...but, you will say that God was working the whole time?
If we are created in God's image, then we have the ability to discern right from wrong, wisdom from foolishness, justice and righteousness from iniquity. Thus, I don't see the need for intervention, in order for one just to make a decision based on a theological explanation.
 

rockytopva

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There seems to be a movement (has been for awhile) towards Christian intellectualism. A person reads the Bible and when he determines the Bible is true then he is considered a Christian. Spiritual maturity becomes the acceptance of different Scriptures into a theological construct.

Can a person actually be saved under Christian intellectualism without hearing the voice of God, without God moving in their own heart in a meaningfully but subjective way?
In the old Methodist movement they could sense when the Christ came shinning through. If they could not sense the wonderful Christian character in the experience they would tell you to come back tomorrow night... And smile a little as they said it. The Apostle Paul apparently put a lot of work getting the Christ formed inside the Galatians... And then he had to go through all of that the second time!

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you...- Galatians 4:19
 

DNB

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In the old Methodist movement they could sense when the Christ came shinning through. If they could not sense the wonderful Christian character in the experience they would tell you to come back tomorrow night... And smile a little as they said it. The Apostle Paul apparently put a lot of work getting the Christ formed inside the Galatians... And then he had to go through all of that the second time!

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you...- Galatians 4:19
Yes, but tell someone that they won the lottery, and you'll get the exact same sparkle. In other words, don't let emotions fool you. Sometimes all that people hear in the Gospel, is what God can do for them, ..I'm sure, as you know. They all think that they're so blessed.
This is why I would demand a person to explain to me, in their own words, what the Gospels means to them. Thus, the understanding always comes first. This is how we decide between Christrianity and Islam, and Budhism, etc..
That sparkle may appear at first, put without understanding, the cares of the world will make it go away.

Matt 13:18-23
13:18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
 
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Candidus

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To the point, that I would imagine that 'through your years of study', you are definitely a better person, and better Christian for it?

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Keep in mind that I came from the perspective of an ardent Atheist. Call it caution, call it being anal-retentive :confused:... I see no benefit from believing something, especially basing my life and existence on something that is not true. One saying that has stuck in my vocabulary"

"There is no virtue in believing a lie!"

While not every doctrine of teaching is as of vital importance, some are! After reading Paul's warnings about "another Jesus," "a different spirit," or a "different gospel," I do not believe that one can be too serious about looking, listening and learning by studying these things; they are of eternal consequence. What could possibly be of more importance right this minute than being correct in these things? Eternity is a long time to be wrong about the "essentials!"

With study I have seen growth. I could not help but see growth because I had nowhere to go but up!:rolleyes: If light comes, and we respond to that light, by being obedient to God's voice we are first made more pleasing to Him, and as a result, I believe that we are molded to be more like what God created us to be. However, it may not be better in the world's eye's.
 
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Waiting on him

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Yes, but tell someone that they won the lottery, and you'll get the exact same sparkle. In other words, don't let emotions fool you. Sometimes all that people hear in the Gospel, is what God can do for them, ..I'm sure, as you know. They all think that they're so blessed.
This is why I would demand a person to explain to me, in their own words, what the Gospels means to them. Thus, the understanding always comes first. This is how we decide between Christrianity and Islam, and Budhism, etc..
That sparkle may appear at first, put without understanding, the cares of the world will make it go away.

Matt 13:18-23
13:18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
What do you believe makes the ground good?
 

Waiting on him

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Keep in mind that I came from the perspective of an ardent Atheist. Call it caution, call it being anal-retentive :confused:... I see no benefit from believing something, especially basing my life and existence on something that is not true. One saying that has stuck in my vocabulary"

"There is no virtue in believing a lie!"

While not every doctrine of teaching is as of vital importance, some are! After reading Paul's warnings about "another Jesus," "a different spirit," or a "different gospel," I do not believe that one can be too serious about looking, listening and learning by studying these things; they are of eternal consequence. What could possibly be of more importance right this minute than being correct in these things? Eternity is a long time to be wrong about the "essentials!"

With study I have seen growth. I could not help but see growth because I had nowhere to go but up!:rolleyes: If light comes, and we respond to that light, by being obedient to God's voice we are first made more pleasing to Him, and as a result, I believe that we are molded to be more like what God created us to be. However, it may not be better in the world's eye's.
Well, if what your called to is against your will, it's most probable it is the gospel.
 

DNB

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Keep in mind that I came from the perspective of an ardent Atheist. Call it caution, call it being anal-retentive :confused:... I see no benefit from believing something, especially basing my life and existence on something that is not true. One saying that has stuck in my vocabulary"

"There is no virtue in believing a lie!"

While not every doctrine of teaching is as of vital importance, some are! After reading Paul's warnings about "another Jesus," "a different spirit," or a "different gospel," I do not believe that one can be too serious about looking, listening and learning by studying these things; they are of eternal consequence. What could possibly be of more importance right this minute than being correct in these things? Eternity is a long time to be wrong about the "essentials!"

With study I have seen growth. I could not help but see growth because I had nowhere to go but up!:rolleyes: If light comes, and we respond to that light, by being obedient to God's voice we are first made more pleasing to Him, and as a result, I believe that we are molded to be more like what God created us to be. However, it may not be better in the world's eye's.
Couldn't agree with you more!
 

John Caldwell

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ok, fair enough John. Of course, for now, I still hold to my position, as maybe there's more to the story than I explained, in order to justify my view ....as in years of insight that lead up to this. ...but, you will say that God was working the whole time?
If we are created in God's image, then we have the ability to discern right from wrong, wisdom from foolishness, justice and righteousness from iniquity. Thus, I don't see the need for intervention, in order for one just to make a decision based on a theological explanation.
I believe so. The reason is that Scripture tells us that the gospel is foolishness to the world. Scripture also tells us that no man comes to believe except that God draws them. So I believe that God has worked in all of the lives of those who believe. He has to have otherwise Scripture itself is wrong and we have no objective bearing.
 

John Caldwell

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Why do I feel that this thread is slowly becoming one that accredits man's abilities?
Perhaps because you are able to feel that way. :D

Historic Christianity pretty much always considered God as the source of belief (God as giving men the capability to believe. That is not necessarily affirming the negative (that there are some God has not drawn).
 

DNB

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I believe so. The reason is that Scripture tells us that the gospel is foolishness to the world. Scripture also tells us that no man comes to believe except that God draws them. So I believe that God has worked in all of the lives of those who believe. He has to have otherwise Scripture itself is wrong and we have no objective bearing.
I fully can appreciate the proof-text in favour of your position. No contention there. To me, though, a harmonization is required in substantiating both God's sovereignty, with man's obligations and duties to obey God's will. I believe that there are somewhat equally weighted proof-text, on both sides of the controversy.
 

Sabertooth

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Sorry guys but can someone please give me the definition of Christian intellectualism...
Is it someone who is well versed in scripture???
The "good" version,
Otherwise, my version of "Christian Intellectualism" consists of
"And you shall love the Lord your God
  • with all your heart,
  • with all your soul,
  • with all your mind, and
  • with all your strength." Mark 12:30 NKJV
and 2 Corinthians 10:5, below.
The "bad" version,
"Now concerning things offered to idols:
We know that we all have knowledge.

Knowledge puffs up [makes arrogant],
but love edifies [builds up]." 1 Corinthians 8:1 NKJV​

(I should probably point out that there is a shade of difference between "intellect" & "knowledge."
full
)
 
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John Caldwell

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I fully can appreciate the proof-text in favour of your position. No contention there. To me, though, a harmonization is required in substantiating both God's sovereignty, with man's obligations and duties to obey God's will. I believe that there are somewhat equally weighted proof-text, on both sides of the controversy.
I agree. This is not a God's will vs man's will issue for me. I believe men of their own will repent and believe. But I also believe God unveils truth to us. Not forcing our will but unveiling Truth.
 

DNB

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I agree. This is not a God's will vs man's will issue for me. I believe men of their own will repent and believe. But I also believe God unveils truth to us. Not forcing our will but unveiling Truth.
oh, interesting, I may have misconstrued your position then? Then, I will say, I'm not sure. It's always been puzzling to me how certain notions dawn on one person, but not the other. How two people can go through the same experience, and one derives a lesson entirely different than the other. It seems clear at times that we are born wired differently than one another, even among siblings. One can almost anticipate a child's behaviour from birth (give or take a few years). As if, there's almost a predisposition in us to be able to discern certain things, and others not. For, I've often said, show me the character, and I'll show you the insight and faith (even prior to believing in Christ).
Something like that.

Ultimately, I believe that God's knows us better than we know ourselves, and He simply creates the environment that He knows will be the most conducive for us to fulfill His will, by our own volition, whether we are aware of it or not.
Sovereignty + Free Will.
 

John Caldwell

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oh, interesting, I may have misconstrued your position then? Then, I will say, I'm not sure. It's always been puzzling to me how certain notions dawn on one person, but not the other. How two people can go through the same experience, and one derives a lesson entirely different than the other. It seems clear at times that we are born wired differently than one another, even among siblings. One can almost anticipate a child's behaviour from birth (give or take a few years). As if, there's almost a predisposition in us to be able to discern certain things, and others not. For, I've often said, show me the character, and I'll show you the insight and faith (even prior to believing in Christ).
Something like that.

Ultimately, I believe that God's knows us better than we know ourselves, and He simply creates the environment that He knows will be the most conducive for us to fulfill His will, by our own volition, whether we are aware of it or not.
Sovereignty + Free Will.
You may have misconstrued my position. I'm not sure how you construed it. :D

My wife and I both eat lima beans. She does because she likes them. I do because I'm hungry and do not want to be rude. People are wired differently.

I think the error in the free will debate is people argue as if God was the guy next door with a will and mind like our own. I do not see an issue between divine sovereignty and human free will.
 
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Brakelite

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As I read through the various posts I get the strong impression that the further along in the discussion we progress, the more we try and box God into s corner and say to Him... You have to save people this way.
Good wants everyone to be saved. Without exception. He wants all sinners to repent and turn away from their lives of rebellion and embrace the gospel and by so doing receive life and not perish. And I believe He will use any means at His disposal in order to accomplish that. He will use a simple method for the less intellectually gifted and an intellectually nuanced means for those accustomed to thinking in that manner. He will raise up one or debase the other... Even the ignorant can be proud, and the intellectual humble... God will adjust His methods to suit circumstances... If it works, He'll use it.
And I think the fact that we all came to Him through different ways attests to that. But, the narrow way Jesus spoke of comes next. While we all come from different backgrounds and travel different roads before accepting the gospel, those various roads them converge an go in one direction, and they're are certain conditions to remaining on that road. Conversion is just that. We do indeed... We must... Become new creatures. We do literally change after meeting Christ. That my friends is an imperative.
And it is not by might, not by power, not by many wisdom or understanding that we are changed... It is only by the Spirit of God.
Some come by intellectually understanding the scriptures, and making a positive decision in response to being convicted they express the truth of God. Others are convicted of sin as a result of preaching, and accept the gospel. Others are simply convicted of sin by the holy Spirit and ask forgiveness if God, receive Him into their lives, are changed, then go to the scriptures to understand what happened. Let's not put God into a box.