What Need I of Grace?

[justbyfaith]

So what does it mean that you cannot do the things that you would (Galatians 5:17)?

Do you then relate it to Romans ch.7 where Paul says the things he wants to do he doesn't do and the things he doesn't want to do, he does? That when he wants to do good, he doesn't do it; and that when he doesn't want to do evil, he does it?

I think that the holier doctrine is to relate it to 1 John 3:9, personally. Iow, that you cannot sin even in moments that you would like to.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So what does it mean that you cannot do the things that you would (Galatians 5:17)?

Do you then relate it to Romans ch.7 where Paul says the things he wants to do he doesn't do and the things he doesn't want to do, he does? That when he wants to do good, he doesn't do it; and that when he doesn't want to do evil, he does it?

I think that the holier doctrine is to relate it to 1 John 3:9, personally. Iow, that you cannot sin even in moments that you would like to.

Romans 7:14-25 is not about Christians. But Peter was speaking of Christians going back to their own vomit. What do you think he meant?

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 7:14-25 is not about Christians. But Peter was speaking of Christians going back to their own vomit. What do you think he meant?

The answer is obvious...vomit relates to the old sins.

But how do you interpret Galatians 5:17? What is the thing that we would do but cannot do as those who are born of God?

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The answer is obvious...vomit relates to the old sins.

But how do you interpret Galatians 5:17? What is the thing that we would do but cannot do as those who are born of God?

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We still commit trespasses spoken of in the Lord's Prayer, but even they can be overcome through maturity of the fruit of the Spirit and the steps to glorification. As we walk in the Spirit, our Advocate cleanses us of trespasses (sins not unto death) 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:7. It is the willful sins of lawlessness (sins unto death) that we are completely free from.

 

[justbyfaith]

We still commit trespasses spoken of in the Lord's Prayer, but even they can be overcome through maturity of the fruit of the Spirit and the steps to glorification. As we walk in the Spirit, our Advocate cleanses us of trespasses (sins not unto death) 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:7. It is the willful sins of lawlessness (sins unto death) that we are completely free from.

So, do you admit that there are things of the flesh that you would do if you could, but that you cannot do because the Spirit is against the flesh (relating the verse to 1 John 3:9)?

Or, do you relate the verse to Romans 7, so that the things you would do but cannot do are the righteous things that you desire to do but don't do? That the things you would do but cannot do are the things of the Spirit?

Which one is it?

Or, do you deny the reality of Galatians 5:17?

Answer?

 

[CharismaticLady]

So, do you admit that there are things of the flesh that you would do if you could, but that you cannot do because the Spirit is against the flesh (relating the verse to 1 John 3:9)?

Or, do you relate the verse to Romans 7, so that the things you would do but cannot do are the righteous things that you desire to do but don't do? That the things you would do but cannot do are the things of the Spirit?

Which one is it?

Or, do you deny the reality of Galatians 5:17?

Answer?

Read Galatians 5:19-21. Personally, there isn't anything there that interests me. I do not relate to Romans 7:14-23 either.

As far as Galatians 5:17 goes. I've been walking in the Spirit for over 40 years. It might be more of a battle for a younger Christian, or even a male Christian. Maybe it is the testosterone.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, @CharismaticLady,

What is it that you would do but cannot do?

Sin?

Or, practice righteousness?

Which one is it?

Is there a third option? Only if you discount Galatians 5:17, saying that it is not the word of the Lord or that it doesn't apply to you.

I think, however, that 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that the word of the Lord is applicable to everyone.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So, @CharismaticLady,

What is it that you would do but cannot do?

Sin?

Or, practice righteousness?

Which one is it?

Is there a third option? Only if you discount Galatians 5:17.

The key to Galatians 5:17 is to STAY in the Spirit. There is only a battle if you grieve or quench the Spirit. Just don't. My relationship with God is my life. We are so close, that if I have a question, I just ask Him and He tells me immediately, because that is what I expect. I have no doubt about receiving an answer, especially concerning His Word.

Read the first half of 1 John 2:1. You are reading Galatians 5:17 as if you don't have a choice.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Some say that, as believers in Yahshua, we have no more commitment to the law.
Now if there is no law, there is no transgression. If there is no transgression; there is no sin.
If there is no sin; then I would ask, "what need I of grace?

I'm late to this thread, and have not read the comments. I'd still like to respond.

Rom 4.15 can easily be misunderstood. Jesus died on the cross. Once he died, the Law no longer applied to him--he was dead. Whether he did good or bad, it didn't matter--he was dead. And the death he died appeared as a curse, as if he had failed under the Law. No matter--he was dead, and no longer under the Law.

Quite frankly, I think Jesus only lived under the Law as Messiah, and not as sinful Israel. He needed no sacrifices for his sins, since he had no sin. But the fact remains, he died as if he had been a sinner, and he died as if under a curse. And the Law no longer applied to him in any way because he was dead.

This is Paul's point. Once we identify with Jesus we also are dead. The Law no longer applies to us. But this doesn't mean God's Law in another sense no longer applies to us. There was the Law of God from the beginning that Man, male and female, should live in the image and likeness of God. This Law was universal and eternal. Not even death can separate us from this Law!

What happened when we chose to identify with Christ is that we died with him so as to no longer be under the Law. This also enabled us to be raised up with him in his resurrection so that we live again under the universal, eternal Law of God.

But the Law of God can no longer stand against us, as the Law of Moses was able to stand against Israel, preventing them from entering into God's eternal Kingdom. Once we were raised with Christ we continue to identify with him in his sinless life. We are not sinless ourselves, but identify with him in his sinless life, and receive from him his sinless Holy Spirit by grace, and not on the basis of our inherent sin.

So it is the Law of Moses that no longer exists, to stand against sinful Israel. And thus, none of us have any Law that stands against us since the only Law that now exists is a Law that applies to Christians through grace.

We may not be prevented from entering into God's eternal Kingdom, nor can we be stopped from having the Holy Spirit. But we still remain obligated to follow the universal, eternal Law of God, commanding us to be like Jesus. In choosing to identify with him we choose to be like him. This is a Law that continues to be in effect, even though it cannot be used against us when we choose to identify with Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are reading Galatians 5:17 as if you don't have a choice.

Yes; because the word is "cannot".

Ye "cannot" do the things that "ye would".

So, face it, @CharismaticLady

either you would sin and cannot sin;

or else you would do righteousness and cannot do righteousness.

Which one is it?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes; because the word is "cannot".

Ye "cannot" do the things that "ye would".

So, face it, @CharismaticLady

either you would sin and cannot sin;

or else you would do righteousness and cannot do righteousness.

Which one is it?

I don't.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

You are looking at it only from the flesh side; I am looking it at the Spirit side.

I cannot do what the flesh would like, because I'm not listening to the flesh; I am listening to the Spirit.

You cannot do what the Spirit would like, because you are not listening to the Spirit; you are listening to the flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't.

You don't...what?

Commit sin? Then you would commit sin, but cannot.

Practice righteousness? Then you would practice righteousness, but cannot.

Which one is it?

It's alright if you don't want to answer. I understand that this whole thing in Galatians 5:17 messes with your theology and shows you up for the fact that even if you don't practically commit sin, that you in fact would if you could and that this means that indwelling sin is a reality. Or that if you wouldn't commit sin then it means that you would practice righteousness but cannot do so, as in the case of Romans 7:14-25: I believe that in that case you would identify yourself as an unbeliever. Because the scripture is clear that you cannot do the things that ye would; because there is a very real war between the flesh and the Spirit within you; and you cannot do the things that you would. I say to you truly that you cannot do the things that ye would: either you would sin and cannot do so (1 John 3:9) or you would do righteousness and cannot do so (Romans 7:14-25).

I think that we have established rather clearly that you are not going to give a straight answer to this question of which one is is in your life.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You don't...what?

Commit sin? Then you would commit sin, but cannot.

Practice righteousness? Then you would practice righteousness, but cannot.

Which one is it?

It's alright if you don't want to answer. I understand that this whole thing in Galatians 5:17 messes with your theology and shows you up for the fact that even if you don't practically commit sin, that you in fact would if you could and that this means that indwelling sin is a reality. Or that if you wouldn't commit sin then it means that you would practice righteousness but cannot do so, as in the case of Romans 7:14-25: I believe that in that case you would identify yourself as an unbeliever. Because the scripture is clear that you cannot do the things that ye would; because there is a very real war between the flesh and the Spirit within you; and you cannot do the things that you would. I say to you truly that you cannot do the things that ye would: either you would sin and cannot do so (1 John 3:9) or you would do righteousness and cannot do so (Romans 7:14-25).

I think that we have established rather clearly that you are not going to give a straight answer to this question of which one is is in your life.

I don't commit willful sins of the flesh. If you do then that is the difference between us - our point of view.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

You are looking at it only from the flesh side; I am looking at it from the Spirit side.

I cannot do what the flesh would like, because I'm not listening to the flesh; I am listening to the Spirit.

You cannot do what the Spirit would like, because you are not listening to the Spirit; you are listening to the flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't commit willful sins of the flesh. If you do then that is the difference between us - our point of view.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

You are looking at it only from the flesh side; I am looking at it from the Spirit side.

I cannot do what the flesh would like, because I'm not listening to the flesh; I am listening to the Spirit.

You cannot do what the Spirit would like, because you are not listening to the Spirit; you are listening to the flesh.

No, I cannot sin (which the flesh would like), even though my flesh is real within me and I would sin if I could. Because that is also the testimony of Galatians 5:17 if you combine it with 1 John 3:9 rather than Romans 7:14-25.

But you are saying that you would never sin; while in another place you do admit that you do commit sins; just not willful ones. Do you commit those sins because you want to or is there some other reason for it?

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, I cannot sin (which the flesh would like), even though my flesh is real within me and I would sin if I could. Because that is also the testimony of Galatians 5:17 if you combine it with 1 John 3:9 rather than Romans 7:14-25.

But you are saying that you would never sin; while in another place you do admit that you do commit sins; just not willful ones. Do you commit those sins because you want to or is there some other reason for it?

I am a doer of 1 John 3:9. I don't have the struggles of Romans 7 because I've been freed from sin and death.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am a doer of 1 John 3:9. I don't have the struggles of Romans 7 because I've been freed from sin and death.

The testimony of Galatians 5:17 is that if you cannot sin, you would commit sin.

That is all I'm saying.

You have a nature of indwelling sin whether you choose to obey it or not.

If it is dead, that is great.

But it still exists within you.

That is all I'm saying.

But I know that this is only a seed planted; and that you may not even see this truth personally until you read this verse in its context during your own devotional time with the Lord.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The testimony of Galatians 5:17 is that if you cannot sin, you would commit sin.

That is all I'm saying.

You have a nature of indwelling sin whether you choose to obey it or not.

If it is dead, that is great.

But it still exists within you.

That is all I'm saying.

But I know that this is only a seed planted; and that you may not even see this truth personally until you read this verse in its context during your own devotional time with the Lord.

No, dear, my OLD NATURE had indwelling sin, which is why they struggled under the law in Romans 7. I have been born again and have a new nature that is a partaker of the divine nature that cannot sin. You are still looking at Galatians 5 from only one side of the equation and are blind to the other side. I can see clearly from my side.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, dear, my OLD NATURE had indwelling sin, which is why they struggled under the law in Romans 7. I have been born again and have a new nature that is a partaker of the divine nature that cannot sin. You are still looking at Galatians 5 from only one side of the equation and are blind to the other side. I can see clearly from my side.

Nope. If you say that you have no sin, you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Nope. If you say that you have no sin, you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you.

Again, you are not reading the next verse in 1 John 1. I have repented and have been cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness. If you are still verse 8 with sin in you, you haven't been born again.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jhn 3:6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Your human body is born of flesh and therefore it is the flesh.

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.