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Featured What Need I of Grace?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by HARK!, May 18, 2020.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    1 John 3:4

    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Romans 4:15

    Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.




    Some say that, as believers in Yahshua, we have no more commitment to the law.

    Now if there is no law, there is no transgression. If there is no transgression; there is no sin.

    If there is no sin; then I would ask, "what need I of grace?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  2. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    The law will condemn you where you stand

    But if you are going to look to the law to learn how to be morally righteous. It was not given for that purpose. You will fail
     
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  3. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    Amen. ✟
     
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  4. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Definition of righteous
    1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
    Definition of RIGHTEOUS


    Romans 7:7
    What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


    (CLV) Ga 3:24
    So that the law has become our escort to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

    Present perfect tense
     
  5. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    I think God defines what is righteous

    According to him, It is being without sin Of which as Jesus said, No one is Good (righteous) but God.

    Even those who sinned without no law were guilty with no excuse
     
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  6. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Indeed he does.



    (CLV) Ro 2:12
    for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

    Better judged than dead.
     
  7. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Well, you answered the question yourself, grace is God's removing of the Law. God was not obligated to do so, but due to it's prevalence in condemning all men, God offered another option. If He could find just one man to fulfill the Law, He would abrogate it.
    Thus, by Christ's love and obedience unto death (final sacrifice), God was able to offer grace to all men by revoking the Law, and establishing Faith in Christ's redemptive work, as the means to salvation.
    Faith over works, is God's grace.
     
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  8. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Unless your judgment is eternal death.
     
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  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    For all must come before the judgement seat Of Christ to be judged for their works done while in the body, whether for good or for evil

    and no one here can Quote "Law, revoked" i guess, hmm
     
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  10. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Ohh.. now that is an interesting way to look at things @HARK! The law has been taken from the tablets of stone and transferred into our hearts through Christ Jesus. It is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus who has set us free from the law of Sin and death. Romans 8:1-11

    When asked what the greatest commandments were, Jesus replied "37 He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and most important command. 39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands." Matt 22:37-40

    Also note: The the penalty of sin is death and death still reigned from Adam to Moses until the Law was given. Romans 5: 12-17 To clarify, although the law did not exist from Adam up until Moses, people still died and death is the penalty of sin....otherwise they would have still be living like they were Eden.....
     
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  11. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Well, I hope that we're not talking semantics here, ....I assume not, therefore...

    New Covenant established, due to the inferiority of the first
    Hebrews 8:6-13
    8:6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8. For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10. "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11. "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12. "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    Hebrews 9:13-15
    9:13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14. how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15. For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    The inferiority of the Law
    Hebrews 10:1-4
    10:1. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    The Superiority of the New Law of Faith
    Hebrews 11:1-11
    11:1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2. For by it the men of old gained approval. 3. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10. for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ok, so i agree that there is a diff in under the law and "obeying the law," but i suggest that "i don't have to keep the law anymore" while simultaneously exhibiting that you, you would certainly be calling the cops post-haste if someone "sinned against you" by breaking the law, right, is hypocritical on its face even?

    See bc we have laws about say "minimum speed limits" on a freeway, right, so if i slow way down or even stop on a freeway bc an accident or whatever in front of me, i am technically "breaking the law," but i will be "saved by grace" bc i can justify slowing down below the min speed limit, something more like that maybe

    and of course we parrott "Jesus fulfilled the law" without ever really examining that, to certain perspectives at least, He broke pretty much every one of the Decalogue at some point
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Indeed it is. If the law was abolished, as some claim; why are they stressing the importance of grace?

    Paul covers at least 8 different categories of law in his letter to the Romans (Leave it to a lawyer.)

    The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
    A Different Law (Ch 7)
    The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
    The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
    God's Law (Ch 7)
    The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
    The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
    The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9

    Paul did not say that Yahshua set us free from YHWH's law.

    That would contradict Yahshua plain simple language:

    (CLV) Lk 16:17
    Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

    Paul did however say this, very early on in that letter:

    (CLV) Ro 3:31
    Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.






    How do we know if we love YHWH?

    This is what YHWH said:

    From the Decalogue
    (CLV) Ex 20:6
    yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

    This is what his son said:

    (CLV) Jn 14:15
    If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

    This is what one of his son's disciples said:

    (CLV) 1Jn 5:3
    For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,






    The law was clearly known before it was written down for Moses; but that might be a topic for another thread.

    I'll give one example here, which should be sufficient. Even the Heathen Abimelech knew that adultery was wrong.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Nope. Even then, I would have had the honor of meeting my righteous creator.
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    I haven't seen that verse; but it seems that some will work tirelessly to find a loophole.
     
  16. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    So 70 years on earth give or take

    A few minutes with the lord. Where he tells you to depart rom him into outer darkness will you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. And that is better?
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Doesn't that contradict Yahshua's own words?

    (CLV) Lk 16:17
    Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

    So you're saying that the message of Yahshua's entire ministry, the example that he set for us to follow, the example that he followed in perfect obedience to his father's perfect law, unto death, died with him?

    I don't buy it.

    Why then is it to be fulfilled in us?

    (CLV) Ro 8:3
    For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, -sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

    (CLV) Ro 8:4
    that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.
     
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  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    zing
     
  19. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    Read the verse before that one.if you depend on the law, your faith is meaningless.
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Hmmm....future tense.

    I guess the earth is still here.

    (CLV) Lk 16:17
    Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
     
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