Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Grace is unmerited favor in the place of merited wrath.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Grace is unmerited favor in the place of merited wrath.

Strong's says only favor.

What does unmerited favor play out in ones life regarding SIN. To me, that definition is where the false doctrine of not only our past sins were taken away, but our present and future sins also, as if we still have the desire to commit them. That is twisted.

 

[justbyfaith]

Looking at 1 John 3:9:

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here it says that as believers in Christ we "cannot sin."

To sin is something that we cannot do.

Is this because we have no desire whatsoever to do so?

I suppose that I believe your testimony, @CharismaticLady, that you yourself no longer have any desire to sin.

However, I do also believe that your testimony runs contrary to what we find in the next verse that I will put before you:

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Ye "cannot" do the things that "ye would"....because the flesh lusteth against the Spirit.

I would say that the flesh has its desires and that we are subject to them as believers.

Jhn 3:6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We were all born of the flesh so we are flesh. It is in me, that is, in my flesh, that no good thing dwells.

Now I also have a new nature, as you said, because that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I have a spirit-man that hates iniquity and does not want to commit iniquity. For,

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh:

Because the Spirit is against the flesh and has control of my life, I "cannot sin."

However, because the flesh is a very real part of me, I "would do" that which I "cannot do."

and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Do you see this?

It is speaking of the battle that exists in the life of every victorious born again believer in Christ.

Therefore I think that if anyone thinks that they do not have such a battle, they should question as to whether or not they are defining sin as they should.

Because people can be blind to the fact that they are sinning, and this is dangerous.

Because if you don't know that you are sinning when you in fact do sin, how will you confess your sins to the Lord?

You would not know that you were sinning and therefore you would be ignorant of the very thing that the Lord wants you to acknowledge.

Good morning, btw.

 

[marks]

The motions of sins, which are by the law, is what works in our members to bring forth fruit unto death (Romans 7:5).

Take away the law as a condemning factor, and there is no more motions of sins.

Exactly!!



It stops working when you unplug the battery.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Strong's says only favor.

What does unmerited favor play out in ones life regarding SIN. To me, that definition is where the false doctrine of not only our past sins were taken away, but our present and future sins also, as if we still have the desire to commit them. That is twisted.

I've come back to the understanding of Grace being God's unmerited favor. And that favor is expressed to us in giving us Christ. God's grace to us is to give us Jesus, uniting us with Him so we share in His eternal life, being born again partakers of God's nature.

I think it's a mistake to separate the power of Christ from Christ Himself, and call that grace. There is not some power given us independant of Christ in us, the power is Jesus Christ Himself, not a thing, it's Who is working through us.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is NOT saying that God's power is given to us as if we earned it. No, it is a gift from Jesus to those who are truly repentant and cry out to Him for Salvation from our sins. He gives us power. The New Covenant is not Law, but the powerful Spirit of Christ.

I see the Commandments of Jesus as a form of Law. I see the command to avoid sin in Paul's epistles as a form of Law. This should not be confused with the Law of Moses, but it *is* Law! Otherwise, your religion is antinomian.

Paul's teaching on sin and the Law of Moses was 8 chapters long. Taking any of the chapters from the middle and making doctrines out of them and separating them from the conclusion - chapter 8 - will definitely lead to incomprehensible false doctrines. For anyone to think God shuts His eyes to sin and darkness doesn't know anything about the nature of God. I've seen it done with chapters 3, 4, 5 and 7. Oy vey! Chapter 8 is Jesus took away our sin; therefore no need for the law. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death. Grace is NOT unmerited favor and all the covered up practice of sin that goes with that erroneous definition. Grace is the power of God to partake of the divine nature! 2 Peter 1:2-4

I think you misunderstand Paul's language, and this is often done, as even Peter suggests. Paul abbreviates a lot. You simply have to understand him in context.

The argument may go something like this. The Law of Moses applied to living Jews. It did not apply to dead Jews. Once a Jew identifies with Christ and with his death, the disciple of Jesus is viewed as dead along with Jesus. He receives the gift of Christ's Spirit, and thus has Christ's death applied to him.

The effect of this is that he or she is dead, by virtue of Christ's Spirit in him or her. The Law of Moses is no longer existing for a dead person so as to condemn him or her.

Judgment, with respect to the disciple of Christ, is now viewed as annulled. And all that is recognized is the righteousness of Christ, which is blameless.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Looking at 1 John 3:9:

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here it says that as believers in Christ we "cannot sin."

To sin is something that we cannot do.

Is this because we have no desire whatsoever to do so?

I suppose that I believe your testimony, @CharismaticLady, that you yourself no longer have any desire to sin.

It is very interesting what happened to me. I was in Church for 30 years before I received the Holy Spirit. Many people/"Christians" are in the same boat I was. But Paul says in Romans 8:9 that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ indwelling them do not belong to Him. Imagine, my shock that all my life I was unsaved, until that night in 1977 when I finally and totally repented and wanted to be "scrubbed clean of all weakness to sin" The quote is not scripture, but my prayer that night, having to do with Psalms 51:7-10

However, I do also believe that your testimony runs contrary to what we find in the next verse that I will put before you:

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Ye "cannot" do the things that "ye would"....because the flesh lusteth against the Spirit.

I would say that the flesh has its desires and that we are subject to them as believers.

We've gone over this before and you couldn't see this from my point of view. I see this verse as a general statement of those with the Spirit vs. those without.

The key phrase is "cannot do." That is just like 1 John 3:9. When you are in the Spirit and stay there you have NO DESIRE to fulfill the lust of the flesh, so even though your old flesh would have wanted to sin, your born again nature doesn't want to, so won't.

Jhn 3:6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We were all born of the flesh so we are flesh. It is in me, that is, in my flesh, that no good thing dwells.

Now I also have a new nature, as you said, because that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I have a spirit-man that hates iniquity and does not want to commit iniquity. For,

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh:

Because the Spirit is against the flesh and has control of my life, I "cannot sin."

Yes, we are all born of flesh, which is why we MUST be born again of Spirit in order to not sin.

However, because the flesh is a very real part of me, I "would do" that which I "cannot do."

and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Do you see this?

It is speaking of the battle that exists in the life of every victorious born again believer in Christ.

Therefore I think that if anyone thinks that they do not have such a battle, they should question as to whether or not they are defining sin as they should.

You sound like you believe Romans 7:14-23 is the Christian's battle, and haven't read the conclusion of Jesus making us FREE from that battle.

Some things you say, I'm right there with you. And then you turn around and say the opposite. So which is it. Can we sin, or cannot sin.

Because people can be blind to the fact that they are sinning, and this is dangerous.

Because if you don't know that you are sinning when you in fact do sin, how will you confess your sins to the Lord?

You would not know that you were sinning and therefore you would be ignorant of the very thing that the Lord wants you to acknowledge.

Christians are only accountable for the knowledge in the Spirit that they possess. Philippians 3:16. The Spirit of Truth will continue teaching you until you are perfect. As for confessing your sins, a true Christian doesn't commit sins to confess. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian and receive the Holy Spirit. Then 1 John 3:9 is true.

 

[justbyfaith]

We've gone over this before and you couldn't see this from my point of view. I see this verse as a general statement of those with the Spirit vs. those without.

If someone has the Spirit, then the Spirit is against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit.

Because obtaining the Spirit does not eradicate the flesh.

If someone doesn't have the Spirit, there isn't even a battle. They just do what is of the flesh; they give in every time when they are tempted to sin.

But if you have the Spirit, although you may desire to sin, you cannot do so.

Ye "cannot" do the things that "ye would".

See it now?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I've come back to the understanding of Grace being God's unmerited favor. And that favor is expressed to us in giving us Christ. God's grace to us is to give us Jesus, uniting us with Him so we share in His eternal life, being born again partakers of God's nature.

I think it's a mistake to separate the power of Christ from Christ Himself, and call that grace. There is not some power given us independant of Christ in us, the power is Jesus Christ Himself, not a thing, it's Who is working through us.

Much love!

It cannot be independent of Christ. It is the divine nature - His nature - that is in us.

Read my previous posts, especially #1 and #20.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I see the Commandments of Jesus as a form of Law. I see the command to avoid sin in Paul's epistles as a form of Law. This should not be confused with the Law of Moses, but it *is* Law! Otherwise, your religion is antinomian.

Yes, I agree. They are deeper laws than the Law of Moses which were outside actions mainly, with one inside commandment that caused the struggle, #10.

The laws of Jesus are mainly two. 1 John 3:23 Those are the "commandments" that John always refers to even in Revelation.

I think you misunderstand Paul's language, and this is often done, as even Peter suggests. Paul abbreviates a lot. You simply have to understand him in context.

The argument may go something like this. The Law of Moses applied to living Jews. It did not apply to dead Jews. Once a Jew identifies with Christ and with his death, the disciple of Jesus is viewed as dead along with Jesus. He receives the gift of Christ's Spirit, and thus has Christ's death applied to him.

The effect of this is that he or she is dead, by virtue of Christ's Spirit in him or her. The Law of Moses is no longer existing for a dead person so as to condemn him or her.

Judgment, with respect to the disciple of Christ, is now viewed as annulled. And all that is recognized is the righteousness of Christ, which is blameless.

I understand perfectly. The Law couldn't be kept because of sin in our nature. The laws of Jesus are easily kept by His power in us. Jesus freed us from sin in our nature. That is the result of being born again of the Spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If someone has the Spirit, then the Spirit is against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit.

Because obtaining the Spirit does not eradicate the flesh.

If someone doesn't have the Spirit, there isn't even a battle. They just do what is of the flesh; they give in every time when they are tempted to sin.

But if you have the Spirit, although you may desire to sin, you cannot do so.

Ye "cannot" do the things that "ye would".

See it now?

Romans 8:9 says we are NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not in the flesh; however the flesh is in us.

I think that you are trying to pit Romans 8:9 against Galatians 5:17.

What you need to try and do is to reconcile the two verses so that they don't contradict each other in your mind; and so that both of them hold authority as being divine, inspired holy scripture.

To @CharismaticLady.

 

[John Caldwell]

Grace is unmerited favor in the place of merited wrath.

No. Grace is unmerited favor. Wages is merited favor. You add the "in place of wrath".

 

[justbyfaith]

No. Grace is unmerited favor. Wages is merited favor. You add the "in place of wrath".

If you think that God doesn't have wrath against sin, you are sadly mistaken.

Just read Romans 1:18, for example.

 

[John Caldwell]

If you think that God doesn't have wrath against sin, you are sadly mistaken.

Just read Romans 1:18, for example.

Did I say that? If you believe so I challenge you to quote me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Did I say that? If you believe so I challenge you to quote me.

No. Grace is unmerited favor. Wages is merited favor. You add the "in place of wrath".

In the above quote you appear to be saying that God does not have wrath against sin; at the very least it is your implication. For if unmerited favour is not in place of wrath then what is it in place of?

 

[John Caldwell]

In the above quote you appear to be saying that God does not have wrath against sin; at the very least it is your implication. For if unmerited favour is not in place of wrath then what is it in place of?

No. That is not what I mean or said.

(I mean exactly what I said)

 

[justbyfaith]

No. That is not what I mean or said.

(I mean exactly what I said)

If grace is not in place of wrath, where is wrath? it is nonexistent.

But the scripture is clear that there is indeed wrath against sin.

Maybe you should clarify what you mean; and how your statement does not negate the wrath of God towards those who are not under grace!

 

[John Caldwell]

If grace is not in place of wrath, where is wrath? it is nonexistent.

But the scripture is clear that there is indeed wrath against sin.

Maybe you should clarify what you mean; and how your statement does not negate the wrath of God towards those who are not under grace!

Grace is grace. Wrath is wrath.

What if God's grace us the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law? I am not saying this is true or that it is not. But grace is grace, wrath is wrath.

 

[justbyfaith]

Grace gives victory over wrath.