How does the Theory of Penal Substitution Atonement necessitate the Cross?

[Behold]

Therefore, I say to you truly, that Isaiah 53:4-5 declares that Jesus took upon Himself the punishment for our sins..

Think of it like this.
Christ said...."if possible let this cup pass from me".
The CUP was the judgement of God against the sin of the world, as the WRATH that IS the Cross and all that is associated with it that caused Jesus to suffer and die.
Christ was JUDGED on earth for ALL our sin, so that we will never have have to face eternal judgment for our sin in Heaven.

 

[John Caldwell]

I am not a fan of Eternal Security and PSA. Both are false doctrines that are not Scriptural, yet at one time I was a "True Believer" in both of them. The first to go for me was Eternal Security, and it literally took years to get to the point where it was no longer living in my head!

I remember expressing to my wife that I did not have an issue with Eternal Security "proof-texts" but for one. "Which verse is that? She asked me... I picked up my Bible and read... "Who shall separate us from the love of God?" "There! it says that we cannot be separated from the salvation of God! She was raised in the Church, I was not. She knew her Bible and immediately said, "Where in that passage does it say "salvation"?

No kidding! My mind was so conditioned to see that verse that way, that even though I can read... my mind automatically converted "love" to "salvation!"

PSA is not alone in making people so conditioned that the "see" certain things that are not really there. Most people would be shocked if they woke up and could disconnect themselves from their biases as they re-read Scripture. So much easier said, than done!

Eternal Security depends on how one is defining salvation. In a way it is true (I believe the doctrine). But in a way it is not. Scripture looks to a people who will be saved ("on that day"). These are called the "elect" and we are to test ourselves to make sure that we are numbered among them. In this way, I can agree with the doctrine. I view "salvation" to be referring to an end state. The problem, IMHO, is when people view salvation as now. It is now but not yet. So we cannot be assured of our salvation except by the Spirit at work in us. What I mean by this is if we are concerned that we may not be saved because of how void we are of the Spirit then we have no assurance of our salvation (we cannot look back to a moment where we were "saved" and believe we are GTG). That's my understanding anyway.

 

[Candidus]

Think of it like this.
Christ said...."if possible let this cup pass from me".
The CUP was the judgement of God against the sin of the world, as the WRATH that IS the Cross and all that is associated with it that caused Jesus to suffer and die.
Christ was JUDGED on earth for ALL our sin, so that we will never have have to face eternal judgment for our sin in Heaven.

The Cup was just as likely Coffee as it was the Wrath of God.
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Cor. 5:19

 

[John Caldwell]

Think of it like this.
Christ said...."if possible let this cup pass from me".
The CUP was the judgement of God against the sin of the world, as the WRATH that IS the Cross and all that is associated with it that caused Jesus to suffer and die.
Christ was JUDGED on earth for ALL our sin, so that we will never have have to face eternal judgment for our sin in Heaven.

You said something interesting here, and I am curious as to where it came from.

You say that the cup which Jesus drank (which Jesus said the disciples would indeed share) was the judgment of God against the sin of the world.

In Scripture we see the "cup" being used often. In general it what is in store for us. Sometimes it means our spiritual well being. And sometimes it is the cup of judgment (normally it is stated as such, however).

The reason I ask is no one denies that Christ drank "this cup" as it was the will of God that it not pass from Him. But it seems that you are assigning it to mean a specific thing rather than deriving this from Scripture itself.

Jesus told the disciples that they would share this "cup". How did the disciples share in this judgment so that we would not?

I am not questioning that Jesus accomplished the will of God on the cross, or that we escape the wrath to come as there is no condemnation in Christ. I am just wondering about the statement you made itself.

Thanks

 

[justbyfaith]

What does Colossians 1:24 mean in your opinion?

 

[Candidus]

It can only be true that the word used in Isaiah 53:4-5 is (A) and not (B).

Because if Jesus took our chastening upon Himself rather than our punishment, we would not be the objects of the Lord's chastening.

Yet Hebrews 12:5-11 is clear that He does indeed chasten His children.

Therefore, I say to you truly, that Isaiah 53:4-5 declares that Jesus took upon Himself the punishment for our sins.

Thanks for bringing up that passage, btw. Because I was having trouble finding verses that did not have loopholes that you could get around if you thought about it hard enough.

Clearly, the passage in question proves PSA in my mind because scripture shows forth that the terminology is not what you thought it was.

Interesting, you blew right past the facts with the superiority of blind dogma! The fact is, "punishment" in Isaiah is a bad translation. All of a sudden, after 2000 years, a "translation" appears to use the word "punishment." A sensible exegete of the Word would ask "why"/ And then they would ask, "Why is it all alone and no other passage in all of Scripture agrees with that?"

I knew that you couldn't find any passages that said that Jesus was punished as the passage I brought up does not say that. Your search is not over for the elusive "punishment."! The Scriptures never say that God punished Jesus on the Cross. That is a fact too. Isaiah does not say that either. The Inspired Word of God would have opted for word (A) if we were to understand punishment in the way of retributive justice. Technically, you cannot punish the innocent, for they are not guilty. An innocent man can be made to SUFFER the penalty due to the guilty, but they are not punished. Retribution would have missed the mark.

The Bible never states even one time that God punished Jesus on the cross! You will not find a single time in Scripture where any sacrifice offered to God was "punished." So we must ask, what did happen on the cross? The Bible unequivocally and without exception reveals that Jesus suffered on the cross. Mark 8:31, The Son of man must suffer. Luke 22:15; 24:46; 17:25, Before I suffer. Acts 3:18; 26:23, That Christ should suffer. Hebrews 13:12, his own blood, suffered without the gate. 1 Peter 1:11; 2:21; 2:23; 3:18; 4:1; 5:1, because Jesus also suffered for us....suffered in the flesh. 2nd Corinthians 1:5, the sufferings of Christ.

Look them up for yourself, then try and find a statement that God "punished" Jesus while He was on the Cross, "punishment" of Christ, that He was "punished" for our sins, or that the Son of man must be "punished." You will not find it because it is not true!
You can quibble about terminology, but the Scriptures evade punishment in reference to the death of Christ with consistency and passion! If you inflict a penalty on an innocent man, it is an injustice, and they are not punished; they only suffer.

 

[Behold]

Eternal Security depends on how one is defining salvation. In a way it is true (I believe the doctrine). But in a way it is not. Scripture looks to a people who will be saved ("on that day"). These are called the "elect"

Faith Elects
God saves.

Born again believers are not waiting to be saved "on that day", as we are already born again now.
we are already "sons of God" NOW
we are already the bride of Christ NOW

we are not waiting for a "day", we are waiting for the Rapture and our NEW Body.

 

[Behold]

The Cup was just as likely Coffee as it was the Wrath of God.
"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Cor. 5:19

You should show more respect to the Son of God who was popping blood vessels in His face from stress and mental anguish when He was speaking about the "Cup".
The Cross is worth your respect, even if you don't feel that you should be respectful.
Trust me, think differently.

 

[Behold]

The reason I ask is no one denies that Christ drank "this cup" as it was the will of God that it not pass from Him. But it seems that you are assigning it to mean a specific thing rather than deriving this from Scripture itself.

Thanks

Jesus prayed that the Cup, if possible pass from Him.
He then decided by Free Will, that He would do His Father's will and die on the Cross, and take the other punishment as well..

In the bible there are cups. Thats just one.

 

[Candidus]

You should show more respect to the Son of God who was popping blood vessels in His face from stress and mental anguish when He was speaking about the "Cup".
The Cross is worth your respect, even if you don't feel that you should be respectful.
Trust me, think differently.

You should have more respect for God, suggesting that He beat up on Himself like an idiot in front of the mirror so He could forgive you!

Dividing the Trinity through Wrath disrespects God to the core!

 

[Behold]

So we must ask, what did happen on the cross?

Jesus died for the sin of the world.
Jesus became the sin of the world
God thru Christ forgave the sin of the world.
Jesus laid down His life for the World.

John 3:16. For God so love the world that He GAVE"..
"Gave", the blood of Jesus, the body of Jesus, and the death of Jesus.....for the world..... This is Christ dying for sinners of which, all are sinners.

Paul said "I preach Christ Crucified".....as this is the Gift of God.
Paul said that this Cross is confusion to someone who is not born again.
The will become confused as to its meaning, and they will want to argue against it.

 

[Behold]

You should have more respect for God, suggesting that He beat up on Himself like an idiot in front of the mirror so He could forgive you!

Dividing the Trinity through Wrath disrespects God to the core!

What you does not even make any sense.

Im curious, Candidus... Are you a Christian?
If so, how did this happen to you?

 

[Candidus]

Jesus died for the sin of the world.
Jesus became the sin of the world
God thru Christ forgave the sin of the world.
Jesus laid down His life for the World.

Jesus died for the sin of the world. Yes!
Jesus became the sin of the world- No! Sin cannot be transferred from one person to another.
God thru Christ forgave the sin of the world. No! That would be Universalism.
Jesus laid down His life for the World. Yes!

 

[Candidus]

What you said sounds like a lunatic speaking.
It does not even make any sense.

Im curious, Candidus... Are you a Christian?
If so, how did this happen to you?

Are you a Christian? Yes.

If so, how did this happen to you? Talking to irrational lunatics.

 

[Behold]

Jesus died for the sin of the world. Yes!
Jesus became the sin of the world- No! Sin cannot be transferred from one person to another.
God thru Christ forgave the sin of the world. No! That would be Universalism.
Jesus laid down His life for the World. Yes!

Yes, Jesus became sin, died for it, ended it.....FOR THE WORLD.
This is why the Gospel is the Gospel of reconciliation, whereby God has forgiven, thru the Cross, all sin.
Salvation IS the reconciliation of God to ..... = Its a full justification and redemption freely OFFERED to everyone in the world.
But, its not APPLIED to everyone..
Its only applied when a person hears the Gospel, is convicted by the HS, and BELIEVES.
This person, who has given God their FAITH in Christ, is accepted by God, and accounted as "Justified by Faith" and is born again.

The " Blood Atonement" is always ready to atone for anyone and everyone, but not everyone will come to the Cross and RECEIVE "the gift of righteousness".

So, YES..... the Grace of God IS UNIVERSALLY OFFERED< .. but its not universally applied.
Its only applied by "FAITH". 'Grace thru faith".

 

[Behold]

What does Colossians 1:24 mean in your opinion?

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

when i am weak, then i am strong

its is not i who lives but Christ who lives in me

Paul is referring to the sufferings he was yet to suffer, and was not suggesting that the Cross was needing.

its interesting that all the Apostles were murdered, or similar., except for John..... and we don't know how he died, we only know where he was that last many years.

 

[Candidus]

Yes, Jesus became sin, died for it, ended it.....FOR THE WORLD.

Nonsense!

This is why the Gospel is the Gospel of reconciliation, whereby God has forgiven, thru the Cross, all sin.

More Nonsense; listening to Bob George recently?

 

[John Caldwell]

Jesus prayed that the Cup, if possible pass from Him.
He then decided by Free Will, that He would do His Father's will and die on the Cross, and take the other punishment as well..

In the bible there are cups. Thats just one.

Scripture tells us that Jesus and the disciples shared this cup. I agree this indicated the cross (and that the disciples shared it). It was the punishment of the world as Christ suffered and died at the hands of wicked men according to the Scriptures.

 

[Behold]

Nonsense!


More Nonsense; listening to Bob George recently?

I have no idea who Bob George is..

Have you been listening to The Buddha again recently??

So, here you go..

John 3:16..."for God so love the WORLD = That He Gave"..

Gave what?

Jesus.
The Cross
Redemption
"justification by faith".
Blood Atonement
Eternal Life
Kingdom of God

 

[Behold]

Scripture tells us that Jesus and the disciples shared this cup. I agree this indicated the cross (and that the disciples shared it)..

The Cup that the Apostles shared with Jesus was the Bread and the Wine.

The Apostles could not have shared the Cross with Jesus, because the Apostles were not sinless.
Jesus was sinless, so that is the reason that He and only he, could qualify for the Cross.