Sufficency of Scripture
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Biblical doctrine does not come from me, but God.
You are free to turn from it and face God.
I never made such a statement as it is not well thought out.
It looks like you and your posse are only here to disrupt the thread.
The fact that each one of you must post things that we did not say is telling.
Start your own threads.
If I want to interact with such ideas I will come to visit.
If not continue without me.
Don't you just love it when someone cannot produce ideas they can defend, then want to employ "Cancel Culture" to anyone that would challenge their ideas?
You need your own website, not a Forum for your propaganda!
The Authority, Sufficiency, Finality of Scripture | Monergism
The Finality and Sufficiency of Scripture Part 1 of 2
THE FINALITY AND SUFFICIENCY OF SCRIPTURE PART 1 OF 2
Posted on July 28, 2013by Trey Jasso
Part 2 is here
Reading through John Murray and his collected writings I have come across an interesting chapter in volume 1, “The Finality and Sufficiency of Scripture”. I found it a helpful reminder for us in a time when such a position may seem out-dated or irrelevant. We are at a pivotal point in our society. Now, more than ever, we must affirm our position of the finality and sufficiency of Scripture. This doctrine, cannot be taken for granted. It is still worth our time and careful examination.
The Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 1.8:
The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.
and WCF 1.10:
The supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.
There is a spectrum at hand. On one end of the spectrum is Rome and their appeal to tradition and the voice of the church. The other end of the spectrum is the anabaptist thought, they would eliminate any distinction between clergy and laity, means of grace, and focussed on the special revelation to their inner light. They could best be summarized with the popular slogan “Just me and my bible”.
A clause for this discussion, is in section 10 “the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.” The confession has already dealt with this question in section 5:
We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture, and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole, (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the word in our hearts.
Section 5 is concerned with the agency by which “our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority” of Scripture are induced. Section 10 however deals with the Scripture as canon and when the Holy Spirit is speaking it signifies that Scripture is not dead but living. It is living because of the person behind the text speaking, not because there is some mystical power in the bible itself. The Scripture is God’s word and therefore when God speaks it is always effective and never dead. The Reformers had two distinct challenges. Rome argued that a living voice is needed for the faith and guidance of the Church. The anabaptists argued that all we needed was the inner voice of the believer.
The Finality and Sufficiency of Scripture Part 1 of 2
THE FINALITY AND SUFFICIENCY OF SCRIPTURE PART 1 OF 2
Posted on July 28, 2013by Trey Jasso
Reading through John Murray and his collected writings I have come across an interesting chapter in volume 1, “The Finality and Sufficiency of Scripture”. I found it a helpful reminder for us in a time when such a position may seem out-dated or irrelevant. We are at a pivotal point in our society. Now, more than ever, we must affirm our position of the finality and sufficiency of Scripture. This doctrine, cannot be taken for granted. It is still worth our time and careful examination.
The Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 1.8:
The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.
and WCF 1.10:
The supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.
There is a spectrum at hand. On one end of the spectrum is Rome and their appeal to tradition and the voice of the church. The other end of the spectrum is the anabaptist thought, they would eliminate any distinction between clergy and laity, means of grace, and focussed on the special revelation to their inner light. They could best be summarized with the popular slogan “Just me and my bible”.
A clause for this discussion, is in section 10 “the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.” The confession has already dealt with this question in section 5:
We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture, and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole, (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the word in our hearts.
Section 5 is concerned with the agency by which “our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority” of Scripture are induced. Section 10 however deals with the Scripture as canon and when the Holy Spirit is speaking it signifies that Scripture is not dead but living. It is living because of the person behind the text speaking, not because there is some mystical power in the bible itself. The Scripture is God’s word and therefore when God speaks it is always effective and never dead. The Reformers had two distinct challenges. Rome argued that a living voice is needed for the faith and guidance of the Church. The anabaptists argued that all we needed was the inner voice of the believer.
Don't you just love it when someone cannot produce ideas they can defend, then want to employ "Cancel Culture" to anyone that would challenge their ideas?
You need your own website, not a Forum for your propaganda!
You cannot stand to see the truth presented. Your propensity to offer caricatures, strawmen,and speak evil of Historic biblical scholars speaks volumes.
You do not interact with the links because it will expose your defective musings.
I would enjoy having my own website.
I would enjoy that so my thoughts could not be censored as happens more often than it should.
I have been on boards where my words were edited and deleted . They would put biblical Calvinists on coffee break, then in PM try and get us to recant,lol
I have been on a web site where a moderator actually edited my post, and posted things I did not say to have an excuse to censor my posts. Sad day when that happens.
John Murray continues from Vol.1 of his collected works;
An obvious observation on the finality and sufficiency of Scripture in light of our place in history means there was a time when “finality and sufficiency of Scripture” didn’t mean then what I understand it to mean today. There were clearly times when God’s revelatory word was not in written form. God communicated his will and revelation in other methods.
But clearly there was a time when there would be a word that was committed to writing. This writing was also considered authoritative as our Lord would cite “It is written” when rebuking the devil. Jesus cites Scripture and in doing so communicates that Scripture is irrefutable. There is no higher argument than Scripture.
However, even when Jesus died and ascended,
God’s revelation was not complete. The process of revelation would continue through the apostles till they died. Their teachings are captured in Scripture and therefore we view the canon of Scripture as closed.
Revelation is not happening now in the same way it did when the apostles were writing. Thus, Scripture plays a unique role because it contains revelation as it was happening and, since Scripture is no longer being written, Scripture is complete. It is the consensus, even among those who disagree with us, that Scripture is a closed canon.
We do not have prophets, since we no longer have our Lord with us as he was with the disciples. And we do not have new organs of revelation as we did in apostolic times.
Scripture in it’s total extant is therefore the only revelation of the mind and will of God available to us. This is how Murray explains what the finality of Scripture is to be understood.
An obvious observation on the finality and sufficiency of Scripture in light of our place in history means there was a time when “finality and sufficiency of Scripture” didn’t mean then what I understand it to mean today. There were clearly times when God’s revelatory word was not in written form. God communicated his will and revelation in other methods.
But clearly there was a time when there would be a word that was committed to writing. This writing was also considered authoritative as our Lord would cite “It is written” when rebuking the devil. Jesus cites Scripture and in doing so communicates that Scripture is irrefutable. There is no higher argument than Scripture.
However, even when Jesus died and ascended,
God’s revelation was not complete. The process of revelation would continue through the apostles till they died. Their teachings are captured in Scripture and therefore we view the canon of Scripture as closed.
Revelation is not happening now in the same way it did when the apostles were writing. Thus, Scripture plays a unique role because it contains revelation as it was happening and, since Scripture is no longer being written, Scripture is complete. It is the consensus, even among those who disagree with us, that Scripture is a closed canon.
We do not have prophets, since we no longer have our Lord with us as he was with the disciples. And we do not have new organs of revelation as we did in apostolic times.
Scripture in it’s total extant is therefore the only revelation of the mind and will of God available to us. This is how Murray explains what the finality of Scripture is to be understood.
Once again, I see another person of the Calvinian Cult, flop out the The Westminster Confession as if it was above Scripture itself!
This is all too common when the Calvinist finds that their doctrine is not in the Bible!
The Westminster Confession has no more authority over the Christian than the Watchtower Magazine. Yet Cult Members imply the same claim!
For those readers who desire to learn and grow;
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/
THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE The authority of Scripture must necessarily be discussed in the context of both its sufficiency and our Baptist distinctives. If we hold to the all-sufficiency of Scripture as the only rule of both faith and practice, then we must do so intelligently and consistently, understanding the nature and significance of Scriptural authority.
FIRST, The Source of Scriptural Authority.
The Bible does not derive its authority from its content, the validity or accuracy of its historical data, the uniqueness of its character, or even the internal witness of the Holy Spirit (All of which are vital or necessary). The authority of Scripture derives from God Himself. He is the Self-contained, Self-disclosing God Who has spoken (Gen. 1:1-3; Heb. 1:1-3). The Bible is therefore the very Word of God inscripturated.
SECOND, The Significance of Scriptural Authority.
The word authority derives from the Latin auctor, which means author, originator, teacher. It connotes the power to command, to 4 C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography. Banner of Truth ed. I, pp. 148, 152. 3 require and receive submission and obedience.
This term carries the status of ultimacy and finality. The Bible as the inscripturated Word of God is the immutable and ultimate authority as much as the Word of God spoken. Note the phrase: “It is written… gegra?ptai, perf. “It stands written [with unchanging authority and force]…” As the very Word of God, the authority of Scripture is:
• Necessary. Natural revelation (God revealed in creation, history, and in the rational and moral nature of man) is insufficient for both unfallen and fallen mankind. Even unfallen Adam in the state of primeval righteousness needed special revelation or the word of God spoken directly to him for an adequate concept of reality and duty (Cf. the creation mandate, the commands concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and his duty to tend the garden of Eden, Cf. Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15-25).
• Comprehensive. It necessarily encompasses all of life and reality. There is no sphere of life or activity where the Word of God is not to be our guide (Matt. 4:4; 1 Cor. 10:31).
• Ultimate. Because this Word derives from God Himself, there is no higher authority by which it can be judged or standard to which it can be subjected! It is self-authenticating, intelligent and absolute. All other criteria or authorities are relative to the Scriptures. (Psa. 138:2; Isa. 46:9-11; Matt. 24:35; Heb. 1:1-3).
THIRD, There are five essential terms necessarily associated with the authority of Scripture:
• Revelation. God can only be known as He is pleased to reveal Himself. He has revealed Himself in creation, i.e., natural revelation (Psa. 19:1-6; Rom. 1:18-20), and in His Word, i.e., special revelation (Psa. 19:7-14; Heb. 1:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21). This Word or Self-revelation of God has been inscripturated, or put down in written form. God is intelligent, non-contradictory and absolute; so is His revelation, both spoken and written.
• Inspiration. (2 Tim. 3:16, qeopneu?stov, literally, God-breathed). Scriptural authority rests on inspiration in as much as Divine inspiration has given us the very Word of God in written form. Cf. Also 2 Pet. 1:20-21.
• Infallibility. “Incapable of error or deception.” The Bible is self-consistent and not contradictory. It reflects the intelligence or mind, and the nature and character of God Himself. Because the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it is authoritative and so necessarily infallible.
• Inerrancy. “Free from error arising from either mistake or deception.” Because the Bible is the inspired and authoritative Word of God, it is infallible and inerrant.
• Canonicity. The terms canon, canonicity, are derived from Gk. Kanw?n, and mean a rule, measure or standard.
Secondarily, these terms denote the body of Divinely inspired, authoritative Truth—the Word of God inscripturated—the Scriptures. Early Christianity possessed the Jewish Scriptures, the writings of the Apostles and evangelists, a great body of oral tradition, and various writings styled as Apocryphal and pseudographical. From these writings early Christianity, with great care and by a stringent standard (or canon), recognized [They did not establish or form] a given body of writings as the 4 Holy Scriptures or the Word of God inscripturated. Canonicity, then, recognizes the body of revealed truth inscripturated and distinguishes the false from the true, the authoritative from the unauthoritative.
CONCLUSION The doctrine of the Scripture alone—Sola Scriptura—as the only and all-sufficient rule of both faith and practice is the one great Baptist distinctive from which all others derive. This great truth stands as foundational to all other aspects of truth.
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/
THE AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE The authority of Scripture must necessarily be discussed in the context of both its sufficiency and our Baptist distinctives. If we hold to the all-sufficiency of Scripture as the only rule of both faith and practice, then we must do so intelligently and consistently, understanding the nature and significance of Scriptural authority.
FIRST, The Source of Scriptural Authority.
The Bible does not derive its authority from its content, the validity or accuracy of its historical data, the uniqueness of its character, or even the internal witness of the Holy Spirit (All of which are vital or necessary). The authority of Scripture derives from God Himself. He is the Self-contained, Self-disclosing God Who has spoken (Gen. 1:1-3; Heb. 1:1-3). The Bible is therefore the very Word of God inscripturated.
SECOND, The Significance of Scriptural Authority.
The word authority derives from the Latin auctor, which means author, originator, teacher. It connotes the power to command, to 4 C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography. Banner of Truth ed. I, pp. 148, 152. 3 require and receive submission and obedience.
This term carries the status of ultimacy and finality. The Bible as the inscripturated Word of God is the immutable and ultimate authority as much as the Word of God spoken. Note the phrase: “It is written… gegra?ptai, perf. “It stands written [with unchanging authority and force]…” As the very Word of God, the authority of Scripture is:
• Necessary. Natural revelation (God revealed in creation, history, and in the rational and moral nature of man) is insufficient for both unfallen and fallen mankind. Even unfallen Adam in the state of primeval righteousness needed special revelation or the word of God spoken directly to him for an adequate concept of reality and duty (Cf. the creation mandate, the commands concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and his duty to tend the garden of Eden, Cf. Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15-25).
• Comprehensive. It necessarily encompasses all of life and reality. There is no sphere of life or activity where the Word of God is not to be our guide (Matt. 4:4; 1 Cor. 10:31).
• Ultimate. Because this Word derives from God Himself, there is no higher authority by which it can be judged or standard to which it can be subjected! It is self-authenticating, intelligent and absolute. All other criteria or authorities are relative to the Scriptures. (Psa. 138:2; Isa. 46:9-11; Matt. 24:35; Heb. 1:1-3).
THIRD, There are five essential terms necessarily associated with the authority of Scripture:
• Revelation. God can only be known as He is pleased to reveal Himself. He has revealed Himself in creation, i.e., natural revelation (Psa. 19:1-6; Rom. 1:18-20), and in His Word, i.e., special revelation (Psa. 19:7-14; Heb. 1:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21). This Word or Self-revelation of God has been inscripturated, or put down in written form. God is intelligent, non-contradictory and absolute; so is His revelation, both spoken and written.
• Inspiration. (2 Tim. 3:16, qeopneu?stov, literally, God-breathed). Scriptural authority rests on inspiration in as much as Divine inspiration has given us the very Word of God in written form. Cf. Also 2 Pet. 1:20-21.
• Infallibility. “Incapable of error or deception.” The Bible is self-consistent and not contradictory. It reflects the intelligence or mind, and the nature and character of God Himself. Because the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it is authoritative and so necessarily infallible.
• Inerrancy. “Free from error arising from either mistake or deception.” Because the Bible is the inspired and authoritative Word of God, it is infallible and inerrant.
• Canonicity. The terms canon, canonicity, are derived from Gk. Kanw?n, and mean a rule, measure or standard.
Secondarily, these terms denote the body of Divinely inspired, authoritative Truth—the Word of God inscripturated—the Scriptures. Early Christianity possessed the Jewish Scriptures, the writings of the Apostles and evangelists, a great body of oral tradition, and various writings styled as Apocryphal and pseudographical. From these writings early Christianity, with great care and by a stringent standard (or canon), recognized [They did not establish or form] a given body of writings as the 4 Holy Scriptures or the Word of God inscripturated. Canonicity, then, recognizes the body of revealed truth inscripturated and distinguishes the false from the true, the authoritative from the unauthoritative.
CONCLUSION The doctrine of the Scripture alone—Sola Scriptura—as the only and all-sufficient rule of both faith and practice is the one great Baptist distinctive from which all others derive. This great truth stands as foundational to all other aspects of truth.
Candidus,
Calvinists see the teaching of Jesus in all 66 books. From start to finish it is the biblical Kingdom promises being unfolded.
This thread is not about Calvinism, but you are only here to attempt to disrupt the thread so you mock those teachers that you cannot understand.
I understand your frustration. You and your agenda-driven posse cannot get anyone to follow your own threads, so you seek to attach yourself like a barnacle to a ship.
Calvinists see the teaching of Jesus in all 66 books. From start to finish it is the biblical Kingdom promises being unfolded.
This thread is not about Calvinism, but you are only here to attempt to disrupt the thread so you mock those teachers that you cannot understand.
I understand your frustration. You and your agenda-driven posse cannot get anyone to follow your own threads, so you seek to attach yourself like a barnacle to a ship.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
Exactly. These "Christians" say they believe Scripture but they turn things around. It is "double-speak". Scripture does not mean what it says to them. It means what their chosen masters have told them it says.
Rather than testing the philosophy of men against Scripture they use these philosophies and theories to interpret Scripture.
They are modern day Pharisees seeking their own philosophies to guide them through Scripture. And they end up with a religion isolated from Christ and the Word of God.
Professing to be wise they become fools. And ultimately they trample the blood of Christ underneath their legalistic and immoral dogma, placing themselves at odds God, Scripture, and other Christians.
You will NEVER get a passage from them proving their theology. You will get a lot of John Gill, John Murray, John Knox, John MacArthur, Arthur Pinh, ect. But NEVER actual Scripture because it does not exist.
Like the Watchtower, they will tell you those things are full of Scripture. But in the end they fail to pass the rest of Scripture itself. That is what makes these heresies so dangerous - they are an amalgamation of Scripture and philosophy so they fool the immature. That is why we need to stick with God's Word.
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John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I am baptist and a staff member (a moderator) on a Baptist board. Believe it or not we even have Baptists who toss out the Westminster Confession as an authority of their faith.
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Once again the frustration posse claims this;
The links provided are loaded with scriptures, and the teaching is a reflection of the beliefs of the historical believing church, from Jesus and the Apostles to the confessional puritans and reformers.
No one cares about who moderates another board, or what they have to say, the thread here is about the sufficiently of scripture and we see by the links of these learned men, who this sad little posse attempts to oppose.
No attempt is being made to address the scriptures offered in the links
The links provided are loaded with scriptures, and the teaching is a reflection of the beliefs of the historical believing church, from Jesus and the Apostles to the confessional puritans and reformers.
No one cares about who moderates another board, or what they have to say, the thread here is about the sufficiently of scripture and we see by the links of these learned men, who this sad little posse attempts to oppose.
No attempt is being made to address the scriptures offered in the links
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For the record: "Mormons" don't hold that stance at all.Peril?
"Believe my false doctrine or go to Hell!" I guess that isn't just for the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons anymore!
Other Christian branches, frequently do.
Are you claiming that Mormonism is not rife with false doctrines? Please study your church's teachings, and do what others have done -- depart from the LDS church. Here is a web site you need to visit:
https://www.exmormon.org
It has this article:From Mormon Patriarchy to Personal Peace: How I Came to Leave--and Live by Mary Ann Benson.
"When my youngest child entered kindergarten (meaning I got a couple hours a day, five days a week all to myself), I reached for a book, one that I knew Steve had read. I opened Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s The Changing World of Mormonism."
I have a copy of this book, and it is an eye-opener.
Actually my response was that LDS Christians do not believe that all non-LDS Christians are going to Hell.
Contrary to many other branches of Christianity, where it is believed that a person's admittance to Heaven is dependent on their ability to pass a theology test correctly.
@Enoch111, I assure you that I have studied the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints much more thoroughly than you have.
I you want to have a real discussion about this (with both ears open), feel free to send me a PM.
The last two verses of 1 Nephi teach that the entire Book of Mormon is all about keeping the commandments being necessary for salvation; something that is directly contradicted by Paul in the entire epistle to the Galatians.
Since Mormonism is a different gospel than what Paul taught in the book of Galatians, it should be clear that we are not even to attempt to save those who would preach it (see Galatians 1:6-9).
It is better to leave them alone....avoid them...Romans 16:17.
Jesus is Gods word come in the flesh, that is what the bible says. A Christian is one who believes in Christ. God doesnt need the bible men do, they love to boast of how clever they are,
justbyfaith, we've been over this THOROGUHLY about how your claim here is just downright false.
Feel free to disagree with another's beliefs. Do NOT feel free to misrepresent them and hence bear false witness.
If you believe that salvation comes via faith in Christ and faith alone without any added strings, then every person on here (Calvinist Christian, LDS Christain, generic Protestant Christian, etc) is saved.
No; because you must have the right Jesus, the right gospel, and the right spirit in order to be saved (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
And we have not been over this THOROUGHLY.
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