Did Jesus claim to be God?

[DNB]

You say we are in spirit like God. - or is it that we actually like God's spirit?

We have a spirit body that has edges. - edges are like wedges, at times comparable to hedges, but not to be confused with ledges

The Spirit of God has edges? - depends on the mood that he's in.

God is not omnipresent in Spirit? - of course not, for how can God possibly be Spirit, for that would make him transcendent, and you know what will lead to....?

God has a human spirit? - well the eyes and arms of God did protect Israel while in the desert? Not to mention his wings too, therefore maybe he has an eagle spirit also, unless you feel that a falcon is more majestic?

 

[Truther]

You say we are in spirit like God. - or is it that we actually like God's spirit?

We have a spirit body that has edges. - edges are like wedges, at times comparable to hedges, but not to be confused with ledges

The Spirit of God has edges? - depends on the mood that he's in.

God is not omnipresent in Spirit? - of course not, for how can God possibly be Spirit, for that would make him transcendent, and you know what will lead to....?

God has a human spirit? - well the eyes and arms of God did protect Israel while in the desert? Not to mention his wings too, therefore maybe he has an eagle spirit also, unless you feel that a falcon is more majestic?

God is light. Light has no edges. God is endless(omnipresent). God's light is omnipresent, therefore it casts no shadows.

 

[JunChosen]

SURE, NO PROBLEM, SEE POST #287 FOR STARTERS.

and if you like we can also go bact to the beginning... and we can start at Genesis 1:1, and 1:26 & 27 on through Revelation 22, (smile)

I've read post #287 and really nothing new that you can add as to what already has been said. When we start with a wrong premise our conclusions will always make our doctrines false.

In Hebrew, the letters "im" after a pronoun makes it a plural word. The word God in Ge. 1:1 is the Hebrew word "Elohim" which is a plural word in lieu of the letters (im).

There are three numbers in the Hebrew language:
a) Singular, speaks of one number
b) Dual, speaks of two
c) Plural, speaks of three or more.

In our language, there are only two numbers: singular and plural.

This makes sense as we read Genesis 1:1 to have at least three or more involved in the creation because of the word "Elohim". AND, this is confirmed by God Himself as He has stipulated in Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." There are no other meaning here except numbers to emphasize plurality. Therefore, Genesis 1:1 should be rendered this way: In the beginning, Gods "they" created the heaven and the earth (according to grammar). Note however; the word "created" is the singular word (bara).

Seem like a contradiction isn’t it? If the subject God is plural, then the verb and inferred or pronoun should be plural as well according to the rule of grammar. In other words, in the beginning, Gods "they" created the heaven and the earth. The point however that the Bible distinctly teaches that although God subsists in three different persons, He is still one God and NOT three Gods.

Below is another example on how God uses the words singular and plural.

In Genesis 1:26-27 we read: “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” So God created man in his image, in the image created He him male and female created He them. In this passage the word “said” is singular and “God said” so it is, and Elohim “He said” not they said. The uni-plural noun Elohim is declared to be one by the singular personal pronoun as inflected in the word said, and then chooses a suitable dialog along or between the three persons of the Godhead. Elohim says (singular) let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image. So that God (plural) created (singular) man in His (singular) own image. Now notice in verse 26 the personal pronouns are plural, in verse 27 the personal pronouns are singular. The singular and plural interchange defies such a carnal philosophy nor are we dealing with three Gods for the same interchange with the same combination declares that Jehovah though He is three persons is ONE.

The sons of Arius who deny that the ONE GOD JEHOVAH subsist as three persons love to quote Deuteronomy 6:4 in defense of their heresy; apparently, they are unaware that Elohim is used in reference to the Godhead. Remember its a uni-plural noun. And they also fail to recognize that Jehovah is the sublime title for Him who is ONE GOD. So they quote, “hear O Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. Remember when LORD is spelled with all capital letters in the Old Testament in the KJV of the Bible, the printer is telling the English reader that the word behind LORD is YHWH or JEHOVAH. Please observe certain things quite plain in the English and even more clear in the Hebrew text: Jehovah (singular) our Elohim (plural) is one Jehovah (singular). The one God Jehovah is seen subsisting in the plurality of three or more because the “im” ending of Elohim means three or more, and yet it declares He is one Jehovah even as in over Deuteronomy 4:35. Another thing to be observed in this passage which so plainly declared the doctrine of the Trinity in such a dynamic way, is the little word “one.” This term speaks of a compound unity, the Hebrew word is “echad” and declares “oneness” in plurality. Now there are several examples of this in the Old Testament that are openly displayed. For example, look at Genesis 11:6. Here we read: “Behold the people is one” and the word for ‘one’ here is the Hebrew word ‘echad’ where it says over in Deuteronomy 6:4 that Jehovah is “one.” People refer to the plural number but the predicate the “is” is singular, and the ‘one’ “echad” speaks of the “oneness” or complete unity of the plurality. In other words, there is a unity among the people that binds them together as “one people.” Therefore, we discover that the plural being spoken of is actually unity or singular.

This same Hebrew word can also be used in Genesis 2:24. This is a beautiful illustration here where “echad” is used and translated as “one.” The "two" shall be one flesh! Now the two (plural) shall be (plural) one (singular) flesh. Obviously, the word of God does not mean that when a man knows his wife that there shall after that be only one body, only one personality, and no longer two people. No, the idea is that plurality of persons shall continue to exist as separate and distinct personality, but they will share a “oneness” from the results of their intimate knowledge of one another. It is quite clear that the favorite text of the Unitarian is a powerful statement to the fact that God exists as a plurality of persons “Elohim” in one compound unity of the Godhead known as Jehovah. We might also observe here for the technical term one only, or one alone and that’s “yahid,” but that is not the term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 or these other passages noted where it speaks of unity, or plurality, or the fact that God exists in three persons is ONE GOD.

There are at least two more examples on how God uses the words singular and plural, but for now, the above examples should suffice.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Cooper]

A few comments from our Lord himself and his contemporises:
God is One. Father and Son denotes his two offices.

Jesus said unto him, Again it is written, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God. Mat_4:7 (ASV)

And Peter answered, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, I will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. Mat_17:4 (ASV)

He leaning back, as he was, on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Joh_13:25 (ASV)

That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his coat about him (for he was naked), and cast himself into the sea. Joh_21:7 (ASV)

Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee? Joh_21:20 (ASV)

For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom_6:23 (ASV)

Rom_8:39 (ASV) nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom_14:14 (ASV) I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself: save that to him who accounteth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours: 1Co_1:2 (ASV)

God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 1Co_1:9 (ASV)

yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. 1Co_8:6 (ASV) [Notice please, ALL things are of the Father and ALL things are through Jesus Christ. Jesus was there in the beginning and all things are through Him.]

Wherefore I make known unto you, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit. 1Co_12:3 (ASV) [Can you say Jesus is Lord and believe it?]

and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Php_2:11 (ASV)

For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Php_3:20 (ASV) [Jesus is Lord]

If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1Ti_6:3 (ASV) [Warning about false teachers]
.

 

[101G]

In our language, there are only two numbers: singular and plural.

This makes sense as we read Genesis 1:1

first let me STOP you right here, in Genesis 1:1 we have the Plurility or if you prefer, the Dual, speaks of two אֵ ת the aleph and the Tav. right here in Genesis 1:1 which is our beginning not God's beginning for he has no beginning. this Aleph is the "First" in term of Numerical account. and the "Tav" also the "Last" of a Numerical account. hence the Duality. this is what I been saying from DAY ONE that God is a Diversity or the "ANOTHER" of himself. which is clearly stated in the Greek term G243 allos. listen once more, "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort".

so JunChosen, what's a numerical difference? thank you a "Duality" of ONE. why ONE? because the definition states, another of the "SAME SORT". what do "Sort" means? according to Dictionary.com 1. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature: 2. character, quality, or nature. so who is of one KIND? only God,. who is in a class all by himnself? God. and who is distinguished by a common character or nature, GOD. now the definition clearly states a "numerical difference?".... 1 ..... 2. .... Hmmmmm a duality, as Genesis 1:1 clearly States, the Aleph and the Tav.

now if you are willing to argue about this it would be an argument from ignorance because the Aleph and the tav is clearly understood in the "FIRST" and the "LAST", or in the Alpha and the omega.... which clearly are synonyms with the Aleph and the Tav. as well as the "beginning" and the "End". or the Root and the Offspring. all referring to the DUALITY, or the PLURALITY of God as "another" of himself or as G243 allos describs a numerical difference of "ONE"

so no, your definition just support what I been saying all along... God is the "ANOTHER" of himself in flesh.....

and no he is not an ECHAD, if so you have two Gods. so notta on that too. Deuteronomy 6:4 is one ALONE as the KJV can translate it lets examine what it is Listed as an Echad.
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

why did they used ECHAD here? because God is one that is to come as "ANOTHER" of the Same ONE... hence a "Diversity" of ONE. lets see it clearly. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
NOW LISTEN REAL GOOD TO THIS NEXT VERSE,
Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
the bible is clear, SO HOW DID GOD GO FROM BEING A PLURALITY OF "US" AND "OUR" TO A SINGULARITY OF ONE IN "HIS" AND "HE?.
answer, for the "us" and the "our" was to come. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." BINGO.

what was to come is the "ANOTHER" of himself in flesh. Just as EVE is the "ANOTHER" of the man Adam. supportive scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

what was made? man who is the "ANOTHER" of his ownself. for the term Adam/Man can be translated as "ANOTHER. it is the Hebrew word,
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119

BINGO, there it is Adam is "ANOTHER" of himself in EVE. God is "ANOTHER of himself in Christ.

How many ways must I say the same thing.

I suggest one study G243 Allos, and H120 אָדָם 'adam and it will eliminate any "Echad" and it will eliminate any "trinity of three persons. do your homework.

REMEMBER GENESIS 1:26 & 27 ARE THE DEAD GIVE AWAYS AS TO WHAT GOD IS....... A "DIVERSITY" OF HIS ONESELF. OR THE "ANOTHER" OF HIS ONESELF.

and if one need more proof of this one as a numerical difference in being "another" of oneself, just ask.......

PICJAG.

 

[tigger 2]

I have seen references to the “aleph tau” found in OT Hebrew manuscripts and left ‘untranslated’ in all Bibles. Some Trinitarians have selected a verse where this usage is found in connection with God or the Messiah and claim that this is falsely left untranslated and should be translated as “the Alpha and the Omega” or the “first and the last,” or “Jesus.”

But “Aleph Tau” (or “Aleph Tav” in modern Hebrew - sometimes transliterated into English as “et”) is not meant to be translated into English.

"[Alef Tau], the definite direct object indicator, is never translated. When standing independently, it is rendered [in this source] with three asterisks (***, e.g., Gen. 1:1)." – p. xxvii, The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament, Vol. 1, Zondervan Publ., 1979.

Yes, Gen. 1:1 has a definite direct object: "the heavens and the earth." Guess where aleph tau is located in this verse. "In the beginning God created ALEPH TAU the heavens and the earth." Yes, it is simply the Hebrew indicator that a definite direct object(s) follows.

“In this article, we’re going to look at a part of Hebrew grammar that beginning students often want to know. There’s a particle in Hebrew (אֵת) that isn’t translated into English. This particle indicates that a ‘direct object’ is ahead in that sentence.” -

http://blogs.transparent.com/hebrew/a-look-at-grammar-the-direct-object/


Also see p. 84 (#853), The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew English Lexicon. Also p. 31, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament. (Acc. or Accus. are abbreviations for the Accusative noun case. That means, for the most part, the direct object in English.)

It is found numerous times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and is often used with someone other than God or the Messiah! For example, in Gen. 13:11 it is associated with Lot (and indicates that he chose the whole plain). At Gen. 14:16 it is used with Abram (not God). Gen. 17:26 uses this same indicator with Ishmael (not God). And so it goes throughout the Hebrew scriptures.

'Alef Tau' as used in this manner has absolutely nothing to do with "first and last," "alpha and Omega," "beginning," etc., and any serious Hebrew OT scholar (even beginners) should be aware of this!


Some links showing the above truth:

http://drmsh.com/%D7%90-%D7%AA-bs/ and,

https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Six/Object_Pronouns/object_pronouns.html and,

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/et_853.htm and,

https://www.torahresourcesinternational.info/pdf/aleftav.pdf

 

[101G]

'Alef Tau' as used in this manner has absolutely nothing to do with "first and last," "alpha and Omega," "beginning," etc., and any serious Hebrew OT scholar (even beginners) should be aware of this!

Thanks for the reply. we will take this one step at a time. the aleph siginify the First/Beginning, and the Root, which are all are siginfying as in the Aleph as the "First" letter in the Hebrew language. and Tav, which siginify the Last/End and the Offspring, which all are siginfying as in the Tav as the "Last" letter in the Hebrew language. these are identifiers.
Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
notice the "WITH" here in the verse.
"FIRST", H7223 רִאשׁוֹן ri'shown (ree-shone') adj.
רִאשֹׁן ri'shon (ree-shone')
first, in place, time or rank (as adjective or noun).
[from H7221]
KJV: ancestor, (that were) before(-time), beginning, eldest, first, fore(-father) (-most), former (thing), of old time, past.
Root(s): H7221

"LAST", H314 אַחֲרוֹן 'acharown (ach-ar-one') adj.
אַחֲרֹן 'acharon (ach-ar-one') [shortened]
1. hinder.
2. (generally) late or last.
3. (specifically) (as facing the east) western.
[from H309]
KJV: after (-ward), to come, following, hind(-er, -ermost, -most

Now tigger 2, is the "First" here and the "Last" one Person or two persons? please notice the and "WITH" here in the verse.

your answer please. and please bare with me for the Aleph and the Tav will be REVEALED as JESUS.

so is the "FIRST" and the "LAST" one or two person here in the Isaiah verse?.

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

God is light. Light has no edges. God is endless(omnipresent). God's light is omnipresent, therefore it casts no shadows.

Light is within the material realm, it can be measured and quantified. God, in some ways, is analogous to light, but He is not light.
That sounds silly 'God's light casts no shadows'. Light obliterates shadow, it clearly does not cast a shadow. In other words, it is not God's omnipresence that disallows a shadow to be cast, but the fact that light eradicates darkness. Size or dimension is of no issue.

 

[Truther]

Light is within the material realm, it can be measured and quantified. God, in some ways, is analogous to light, but He is not light.
That sounds silly 'God's light casts no shadows'. Light obliterates shadow, it clearly does not cast a shadow. In other words, it is not God's omnipresence that disallows a shadow to be cast, but the fact that light eradicates darkness. Size or presence is of no issue.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[101G]

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Light here is not phyical, "Light" here is metaphorically for WISDOM, which consist of "knowledge" and "understanding.
scripture, let's stay in 1 John. 1 John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

BINGO.

PICJAG.

 

[aspen]

well, it is a bit irrelevant, don't you think?

the op question

no offense

Seems to me, we should be asking if Jesus ever denied he was God.

Lots of people believed He was God or, at least a Heavenly being - John the Baptist believed he wasn't worthy to lace his sandals.

People are prone to idolizing anyone or anything they believed could heal or teach or forgive sins.

Jesus could not have been a good teacher or even a good man if he were merely human and refused to correct his followers by denying his divinity. instead of denial, Jesus constantly asked "who do you believe I am"?

 

[DNB]

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John is speaking of God's character in this passage, not His ontology.

 

[Truther]

John is speaking of God's character in this passage, not His ontology.

God is NOT lght?

 

[Truther]

Light here is not phyical, "Light" here is metaphorically for WISDOM, which consist of "knowledge" and "understanding.
scripture, let's stay in 1 John. 1 John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

BINGO.

PICJAG.

We walk in the light because we are infilled with God, which is light.

If you don't think Jesus is blinding white light, then you have to say Paul was metaphorizing here....


3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest...


Paul says the blinding light was Jesus.

Howbout you?

 

[101G]

We walk in the light because we are infilled with God, which is light.

If you don't think Jesus is blinding white light, then you have to say Paul was metaphorizing here....


3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest...


Paul says the blinding light was Jesus.

Howbout you?

lol, I'm very aware of God's glory as was on the mountian of tranfiguration, but that was not the scripture in question... I see you have no argument,
Good day. 2 Timothy 3:7.

PICJAG.

 

[Truther]

lol, I'm very aware of God's glory as was on the mountian of tranfiguration, but that was not the scripture in question... I see you have no argument,
Good day. 2 Timothy 3:7.

PICJAG.

Paul saw Jesus in Acts 9.

Jesus appeared as light which blinded him.

Paul describes Jesus again per his testimony....


6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, ....



And don't say "what light"?

 

[101G]

Paul saw Jesus in Acts 9.

Jesus appeared as light which blinded him.

Paul describes Jesus again per his testimony....


6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, ....



And don't say "what light"?

his GLORY,

PICJAG

 

[DNB]

God is NOT lght?

Rather heavy, I would imagine.

 

[Truther]

his GLORY,

PICJAG

Jesus is blinding white light.

Paul will testify to that when the light spoke to him.

If you don't believe Paul, then believe John...


23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

...which is exactly what physically blinded Paul.

 

[Truther]

Rather heavy, I would imagine.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.