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Featured Did Jesus claim to be God?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by theophilus, May 23, 2020.

  1. theophilus

    theophilus Active Member

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    Many who deny the deity of Jesus say that he never claimed to be God. It is true that there is no record of Jesus ever saying the words, “I am God,” but many of the things he said were in face assertions of his deity.

    For example, there is this statement in his Sermon on the Mount.

    Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
    Matthew 5:10-12 ESV

    He equated being persecuted for righteousness’ sake for being persecuted for his sake. Only God, the source of all righteousness, could make such a claim. And what about this statement near the end of the sermon?

    Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?”And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
    Matthew 7:21-23 ESV

    In saying that he will decide who enters the kingdom he is claiming to be God, just as the Father is.

    He claimed to have the authority to forgive sins.

    And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay.

    And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

    Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts,“Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    Mark 2:3-7 ESV

    The scribes were correct. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus was claiming to be God, and he backed up his claim by what he did next.

    And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic— “I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.”

    And he rose and immediately picked up his bed and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
    Mark 2:8-12 ESV

    There was one time when Jesus plainly said that he was God.

    “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

    So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
    John 8:56-58 ESV

    To understand the significance of what Jesus said we must look at what God said to Moses in their first encounter.

    Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”

    God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

    God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.” Exodus 3:13-15 ESV

    Jesus was declaring that he was the God who spoke to Moses.

    Jesus did make one statement which some say was a denial of his deity.

    And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

    And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”
    Luke 18:18,19 ESV

    It sounds as if Jesus was telling the ruler he shouldn’t call him good because only God is good, but in fact he didn’t say the ruler was wrong in what he said. He was asking him if he understood. The conversation ended with Jesus again saying he was God.

    When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
    Luke 18:22 ESV

    The ruler had asked how to inherit eternal life; Jesus said that the way was to follow him.

    When we read the gospels in English it might not always be clear that Jesus said he was God, but those who heard him had no trouble understanding.

    But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”

    This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
    John 5:17,18 ESV
     
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  2. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    An interesting. When i read the title i stopped and thought about it and I couldn't remember Jesus ever saying it directly
    After that, some of the verses which u quoted came to mind. U made some very good points

    Then u know what came to mind, the Trinity. Im fairly sure that the bible doesn't use that term of explain the Trinity as we know it
    And so for Protestants who are sola scripture how do they explain this doctrine that doesn't appear in the Bible
     
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  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Good topic,
    John 13:13

    "Lord", which is backed up in scripture, both OT and NT.

    PICJAG.
     
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  4. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Cristo they cannot honestly explain it as scriptural doctrine. It has been tried and argued ad nauseam with the use of endless and creative mental gymnastics that twists and added extra-meanings in scripture. They must also add in vital and incorporated invented devices and processed as their crucial 'glue' to prop up make their Trinity theory 'stand up' by itself to given the appearance of congruence and harmony with scripture. It is and has always been a grand smoke and mirrors show by these 'magicians;' presented by many still in-training pants, some mature and some past masters at it. The same goes for the Romanist Catholics who began this grand heresy in the first place, in the 3rd-5th centuries AD...blind teachers leading blind followers astray from the Father and the Son...IMO

    Great Day

    APAK
     
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  5. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    APAK. Just to let u know, I identify as Catholic but not hardcore. I have doubts on some of their doctrines

    I think the Trinity was made doctrine in the very first Catechism a few centuries after Christ

    Im unaware of the reasoning for the Trinity by both the Protestants and Catholics.
    Seeing that the Protestants are supposed to be sola scripture it would be hard to justify it
    I might have to start a thread. Im curious

    U don't believe in the Trinity cos it's not in the Bible. Are there many Christians with this view?
    And can u explain your interpretation of the father, son and holy spirit pls?
     
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  6. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    No worries mate I was raised Catholic myself..and then I saw the light...it can be stunning that Protesters of the Catholics did not get rid of this Trinity along with the other annoying things nailed to that door by good ole Luther...
     
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  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

    Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
     
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  8. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.
     
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  9. theophilus

    theophilus Active Member

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    The word Trinity is never found in the Bible but the teaching is. The first indication is in the word for God, elohim. The word is plural but it is used with a singular verb, showing that God is one and yet more than one.

    The Jews may have actually believed in the Trinity in New Testament times. The account of the Wise Men shows that they believed the Messiah would be God in human form. The reason they oppose the belief so vehemently today is that their rejection of their Messiah has forced them to reinterpret the prophecies about him and so misinterpret much of the teaching of the Bible.

    Here is an explanation of this doctrine: What is the Trinity? | CARM.org
     
  10. theophilus

    theophilus Active Member

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    Luther protested the teachings that had been added to those taught by the Bible. The Trinity was not one of these added teachings.
     
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  11. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    None of those verses describe the Trinity. It appears that Protestants aren't sola scripture after all
     
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  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. is the term "Father" a title of a person, or the actual person? yes or No.

    PICJAG.
     
  13. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    So true, verses like these and there are many more, do nothing to support their Trinity doctrine being in scripture and from YHWH.

    Then the next typical response or rebuttal usually flies back at you with more supposedly self-explanatory words of proof, or even with a new barrage of many more verses, deliberately produced to overwhelm you. This self-imposed avalanche and confusion also serves to deflect your attention and avoid ever returning to the original verses first posed, on the off chance they can be debated and even defeated.

    You will be hard-pressed and stunned if you can get a decent commentary with context and original meanings of words of scripture from any Trinitarian.

    Their display of many parroted verses, some of their words usually carefully crafted in bold, underlined, some with extra large fonts and even in color, red color, are to blind you into submission hoping you will eventually fall in line and come to their senses.

    Hypnotic, and incessant scripture-dumps, supplemented with a type of group or bandwagon psychological effect is ineffective on those interested in truly understanding scripture and its doctrines.

    APAK
     
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  14. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    How about -

    John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one."

    And He didn't correct Thomas when Thomas said =
    John 20:28 - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
     
  15. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    Amen...I love that one.
     
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  16. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    The Jews did not understand that he was Emmanuel = God with us ! that wraps it up when one understands who Jesus is, he came in the flesh to Save us.
    When one is with the Holy Spirit one will understand that it all comes together and make perfect sense, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all as one but have their own identity's that emanate from the one in the same, they are totally united as one in the same.
    God works in mysterious ways one could say, but they are not so mysterious when one understands such.
    No one can come to the Father but through his only begotten Son = Emanuel who same down to be Jesus = Saviour For us.
    It's all in the understanding that Jesus Christ rose from the dead = the Spirit lives on, they who are of this world reject such, because they are carnal.
     
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  17. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Not sola scripture? You did realize those are ALL scriptures, didn't you? Or don't you care. Any ol' accusation will do; just pull something out of the air.
     
  18. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    One of the passages tells us that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit is one.
    That's not the Trinity. Does "the Word" mean "the Son"? If so how?
    Also we aren't sure if it is a figure of speech or literal. And the word "Trinity" is no where to be found

    None of the other two verses even say anything about being one
     
  19. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Have you never read John? Start with the first verse and learn.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

    16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

    20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”

    21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

    He said, “I am not.”

    “Are you the Prophet?”

    And he answered, “No.”

    22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”

    23 He said: “I am

    ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
    “Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’

    as the prophet Isaiah said.”

    24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

    26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

    28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

    29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

    32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
     
  20. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    Look im not saying your wrong or criticizing the doctrine im just saying that the biblical evidence for it isn't very strong
    Starting with the fact the term trinity isn't there. The start of John there could very well be evidence that the Word is referring to Jesus
    But it might not be as well. We see the term "the Word" get used a lot to describe the Gospel as well

    The lengths one must go to validate the Trinity with scripture requires some speculation.
    It reminds me of the Catholic arguments for some of their doctrines that have weak biblical foundations
     
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