Mary, Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ

[historyb]

I'm a Catholic but I don't practice the doctrine of intercession, the RCC doesn't demand it.

One way i look at it is like sending a message.
I can send my message to the Blessed Mother who in turn sends it to God,
Or I can send my message to God, direct.

Exactly. What others fail to grasp and understand is the meaning of words as for example the word pray simply means to ask, it is not some grandiose religious thing and in fact when some makes a request we are literally praying to each other. The problem is the way I see it is the people want to redefine words instead of accept all the definitions of a word so that pray means only to God which of course is not true it is worship that is only due to God

 

[historyb]

The bigger question is this... Did the age of apostleship end with Paul and John or did it continued through the church???

Exactly. Anglicans, Catholics, and others do not believe apostleship ended but was passed down by the laying of hands

 

[Taken]

Ahhhh, but Christ’s Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 2:15) and the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) fills in the blanks.

I am quite Familiar and Comfortable with Christ's Church and Jesus' Doctrine...

Other Churches and Other Doctrines are by, and for, other people.

QUOTE]
What neither His Church NOR the Scriptures say anything about is Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide – and that should really concern you . . .[/QUOTE]

LOL - I do not require an enemy to suggest I "really should" limit myself to my enemy's purposal.

You want to carry on about sola Scriptura or Sola fide...start a thread or post in the threads about that Topic.

 

[amadeus]

Why do so many people RESORT to accusing and name calling when in discussion??? WE are ALL CHRISTIANS HERE...
and we all deserve respect when being spoken to... otherwise these become no more than secular discussions. Our words
are always on display for NON believers to see and make judgements on. Just sayin.

Unfortunately on certain subjects it frequently happens. Catholicism is a one of the worst ones.

 

[historyb]

Unfortunately on certain subjects it frequently happens. Catholicism is a one of the worst ones.

People seem so myopic that if anyone mention anything about Traditional Christianity that fearful cry of Catholicism! rings out when Catholicism is not the only one out there.

 

[amadeus]

Hey bro

I have one problem with this.. Mary and these other saints are not God, they could not possibly hear every prayer. Let alone all the prayers at once.

I think. This is the issue most people have with this thinking,,and while I do not personally believe catholics hold her up as dirty,I can understand why many do, based on this reasoning.. giving her attributes only God has

We certainly cannot now hear every prayer, but are we not changing? Are we not to be changed? Consider this verse:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

How much like Him are we going to be and when is that to occur? In the case of Mary?

 

[Behold]

While God is higher than Mary, she still is a very important woman and plays a very important role in the Bible and many protestants push that fact aside.

"Protestants" don't have an issue with Mary.
They have an issue with Catholic teaching that elevates Mary as "Queen of Heaven".. who is "a second mediator" working hand in hand with Jesus, redeeming lost souls.

Catholics pray to Mary as if she's the one who hung on the Cross.
The reality is, Mary needed the blood of Jesus to redeem her from sin, just like everyone else.

Also, the NT teaches that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and Catholic theology says that Mary is a "Perpetual Virgin"..

So, if the CC would get rid of all that heresy, Protestant believers would have no issue with what Catholics teach and believe about Mary.

 

[historyb]

Also, the NT teaches that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and Catholic theology says that Mary is a "Perpetual Virgin"..

Catholics are not the only one. Anglicans, Orthodox, some Lutherans, some Methodist and others believe that Mary was and is a Virgin Perpetually. Luther who started the reformation believed and defended Mary's Perpetual Virginity because they understood the culture and understood that Joseph was old and had other children and even Luther understood that not everything would be in the Bible. The Bible wasn't made for everything and people who thik it is for everything are treating it as an idol.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm, well I have been thinking of Catholic doctrine on Mary lately and the "hail Mary." In this thread we will look at the importance of Mary's role in the Bible, and the Catholic doctrine on Mary and why do Catholics say hail Mary's, if we read Luke 1:28 in the Bible we find out Angel Gabriel said to Mary Mother of Jesus "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

A real interesting view point though lately I have seen though from Father Rob Galea, is about loving Jesus the way Mary did, having a close relationship with Jesus the way Mary did, and I think that is quite a wonderful viewpoint, because when we think about it Mary the mother of Christ Jesus would have had such a close relationship with Christ Jesus being the mother of Jesus, it was a mother-son relationship and loving mothers absolutely love and care for their children.

And when we read Luke chapter one we learn that Mary was "thou that art highly favoured" we also learn that Angel Gabriel pretty much said hail Mary. "Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God."

While God is higher than Mary, she still is a very important woman and plays a very important role in the Bible and many protestants push that fact aside.

She was chosen to give birth to Jesus, she was chosen to give birth to the Son of God, who entered this world to fulfill the law, to make the new covenant of "Grace", to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that whoever believes in Him shall not die but live an eternal life. Jesus Christ is Lord God, that walked the earth in human flesh, and He entered the world through Virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:26-31

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

Hi Josho,

I feel that Protestants don't love Mary enough, and if they do, they do not care to speak about it.

OTOH,,, Catholic theologians have her very close to becoming a co-redemptrix, which I strongly disagree with.

No matter how you want to describe the word CO,,,it will still be wrong.

I pray the rosary when I'm with Catholic friends or in church.
We do NOT worship Mary, as many think Catholics do.

What I am confused about our praying to her is this:
Only God is omnipresent. Even satan is not omnipresent.
So how could Mary or any other person the CC has declared to be a saint, possibly hear us?

 

[Behold]

Catholics are not the only one. Anglicans, Orthodox, some Lutherans, some Methodist and others believe that Mary was and is a Virgin Perpetually. Luther who started the reformation believed and defended Mary's Perpetual Virginity because they understood the culture and understood that Joseph was old and had other children and even Luther understood that not everything would be in the Bible. The Bible wasn't made for everything and people who thik it is for everything are treating it as an idol.

You are correct.
We are agreed.
The reason i said "Catholics teach it", is because the groups you mentioned came long after Catholicism created the "dark ages", and were already teaching "maryology"...
These other denominations, came about much later, and are just their puppets who teach a blend of Catholicism and some other man made stuff.

 

[Behold]

Hi Josho,

I feel that Protestants don't love Mary enough, and if they do, they do not care to speak about it.

?

Could you go to any of Paul's Epistles, and find a verse that tells any person he ever wrote an epistle to, ...that they should love Mary?
If you can't find that verse, can you go to Jesus and find a word out of Jesus's mouth where he told any Apostle, Roman, Greek, Heathen, Believer, that they should "love Mary"?
And if you can't find that in 300 New Versions, maybe you can let go of "mary love"., and just accept that we are to Love her Son, as this is what she would want for His redeemed.

 

[Taken]

No "red herring" here.
Just a fair exchange.

I didn't think you could answer it . . .

You tried to deflect...
I chose to ignore your deflection.
What you think about that is of no consequence to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Could you go to any of Paul's Epistles, and find a verse that tells any person he ever wrote an epistle to, ...that they should love Mary?
If you can't find that verse, can you go to Jesus and find a word out of Jesus's mouth where he told any Apostle, Roman, Greek, Heathen, Believer, that they should "love Mary"?
And if you can't find that in 300 New Versions, maybe you can let go of "mary love"., and just accept that we are to Love her Son, as this is what she would want for His redeemed.

I can't let go of Mary love.
She gave birth to our redeemer.
She raised Him and was a mother to Him for 30 years.
Mothers know what it means to be a mother.
She stood at the foot of the cross and watched her Son be crucified.
I have trouble just thinking of that.

Was Mary Magdalene mentioned after Jesus' death in any substantial way?
No. It was a man's world. The men brought forward the new church.
But Mary was given to John. That means she lived with him and them all until
her death.

IF she could hear us,,,it would be fine to speak to her.
I just don't know if she could hear us.
And I tend to doubt it.

 

[amadeus]

People seem so myopic that if anyone mention anything about Traditional Christianity that fearful cry of Catholicism! rings out when Catholicism is not the only one out there.

Unfortunately in some Protestant churches in my experience it has been common practice to speak negatively of the Catholic Church without any specific reasons or sound teaching on it based even on the Bible. Many of the people there and in the Catholic Church too simply go along with the human leadership on some things never studying about it or praying about it themselves. I have had such experiences both as a Catholic and after my own separation from Catholicism. God is always right, but too many people in too many places do not really seek God's opinion on the subject before opening their mouths. There are of course also many who presume that my leader or my pastor or my priest says it and therefore it must be true.

 

[Cristo Rei]

An apostle is simply a messenger of God who also has the responsibility of establishing His church in the proper order.
The problem with churches today is they refuse to honor the ministry of the apostles and prophets.

How so? Don't we all belive in Christ our saviour?
Isnt that the one thing that makes us Christians?

 

[Taken]

Pay attention:

LOL- you hardly need to call my attention to something I just said!

Weird!

Those in Heaven have been PERFECTED in Christ – and that was my point.

Uh, not news. We have been over this before.

What you seem to overlook, IS many men in their ALIVE Bodies ON Earth have Already been MADE "Perfected IN Christ."

 

[Behold]

I can't let go of Mary love.
She gave birth to our redeemer.
She raised Him and was a mother to Him for 30 years.
Mothers know what it means to be a mother.
She stood at the foot of the cross and watched her Son be crucified.
I have trouble just thinking of that.

Was Mary Magdalene mentioned after Jesus' death in any substantial way?
No. It was a man's world. The men brought forward the new church.
But Mary was given to John. That means she lived with him and them all until
her death.

IF she could hear us,,,it would be fine to speak to her.
I just don't know if she could hear us.
And I tend to doubt it.

Ok, well, you have Mary Love.
And you can't let go.
I dont have Mary love.
I see Mary as blessed by what she was Given to do.
This is not the same as writing most of the New Testament, or being called to the mission field and dying in God's service.
Mary is blessed among women, but she is not blessed OVER them or above them.....if you notice the verse.
Her reward was to be remembered as the mother of the Messiah, of which she understood this distinction, and this makes her supremely special, but not worthy of worship.

 

[Marymog]

Yes, I recently learned that the Orthodox religion conceived at the same time as the Catholic religion also pray to Mary. For a long time, I thought that was a major difference. Now the only thing I see that is different between the two is the pope.

I don't know what you mean by "Orthodox religion"? If you mean Eastern Orthodox they are in communion with The Church.

I was speaking specifically of Protestant denominations that have Marion theology similar to The Churches theology.....such as the Anglicans and Lutherans.

Protestantism teaches us that if you believe the Holy Spirit guided you into the truth then it is ok to believe what you believe. Were the Anglican's and Lutherans guided to the truth? You don't need to answer....just something to think about.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Cristo Rei]

Hi Josho,

I feel that Protestants don't love Mary enough, and if they do, they do not care to speak about it.

OTOH,,, Catholic theologians have her very close to becoming a co-redemptrix, which I strongly disagree with.

No matter how you want to describe the word CO,,,it will still be wrong.

I pray the rosary when I'm with Catholic friends or in church.
We do NOT worship Mary, as many think Catholics do.

What I am confused about our praying to her is this:
Only God is omnipresent. Even satan is not omnipresent.
So how could Mary or any other person the CC has declared to be a saint, possibly hear us?

Hey hey hey don't pick on my Aussie mate... LoL...
Just joking... So... Anything new?
Serie A football recently stated up again. Typical Italians. LoL

How is everyone on that forum? Has Kiwidan chilled out now that he can go fishing? How's April? She was the funniest. Send her my good wishes

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, well, you have Mary Love.
And you can't let go.
I dont have Mary love.
I see Mary as blessed by what she was Given to do.
This is not the same as writing most of the New Testament, or being called to the mission field and dying in God's service.
Mary is blessed among women, but she is not blessed OVER them or above them.....if you notice the verse.
Her reward was to be remembered as the mother of the Messiah, of which she understood this distinction, and this makes her supremely special, but not worthy of worship.

One of the commandments is to honor our mother and father.
It does not say to LOVE our mother and father, as Jesus said to love God and ourselves and our neighbor. The command is to HONOR.

Honor is an internal attitude of respect, courtesy, and reverence.
We can love our neighbor, but do we really respect him, do we have reverence for him?
This should be reserved for our parents and what a better world it would be.
When we honor someone, we grant them authority.
Jesus was not ready yet, but He did honor His mother and turned the water into wine.

If Jesus honored His mother, and we love Jesus...
then we should love His mother too.

Also, I'm not sure at what point Mary really understood who Jesus was.

So, yes, she is supremely special and SHOULD NOT be worshipped and I don't know any priest that teaches we are to worship her -- or any Catholic theologian for that matter.