Works

[mailmandan]

This is an interpretive fallacy. "Faith" means what it means *in context.* Biblically we may speak of what the devils believe about God and what Christians believe about God--not the same thing. Some may believe the sky getting red means something. This is not always "saving faith" or godly faith.

That is an important distinction between what the devils believe and what Christians believe. In James 2:19, we see that the devils believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[Joseph77]

nvm

 

[Truther]

Participating in our salvation is a matter of showing our accepting of Christ's atonement for us, and embracing the righteousness he requires of us. I find Water Baptism to be on a lower level of requirements--more on the level of a recommendation. Sorry. Righteousness is something internal and demonstrated outwards by showing Christian spirituality, not encased in rituals, but able to be shown in rituals. Paul seemed to exclude Baptism from things that regard actual Salvation. But Baptism has been dealt with elsewhere. You are right, though--it is a kind of Christian "work."

Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 make water baptism a requirement to find remission of sins and be saved.

Skipping this requirement is the last thing a believer should attempt.

 

[justbyfaith]

It must be "Christ in us" who does the work, and thus we skate, thinking that our works do not play any role in our salvation.

It is true that works don't play any role in our salvation. They are the outworking of a genuine faith; but they don't save us to any degree.

And so, once again, in the name of "salvation" we are told we need do no works, when in reality, we are told that works play a role in our salvation--just not a role in our atonement.

Works do not play a role in our salvation...they are the outworking of a genuine faith; but they don't save us to any degree.

Rather, the role of our works in our salvation is a matter of responding to God's word by obeying it.

As hard as it may be for you to grasp, obeying God's word doesn't save us. It is the result of a living faith; but we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Our salvation is based solely on faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood. Works result out of such a faith as that; but they do not save us in the slightest. What saves us is faith in Jesus and His shed blood alone.

Whether a pagan responding to his conscience or a believer responding to the word of God, men are able, by their obedience, to obtain virtue from God.

We do not obtain virtue from God through our obedience. We are obedient because we have obtained virtue from God. We obtain virtue from God by receiving Christ and His propitiation for us on the Cross

Thus participating in God's salvation by positively responding to it is a virtue and is a form of meriting salvation.

We cannot merit salvation. By faith, we obtain the merits of Christ's perfect life as His righteousness is imputed to us.

The importance of this is that Christian salvation, to be real, must be demonstrated in our lives through *works.*

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

What this is saying is not that we are saved by works; but that if we say that we have salvation but do not have works, our salvation is very likely lacking in us. This is because salvation, in itself, has to do with the shedding abroad of God's love in our hearts as a free gift. The love that is given to us motivates us to keep the commandments; but keeping the commandments does not in any way bring salvation to us. Therefore, if we say that we have a relationship with Him but don't keep His commandments, we are lying; because real salvation produces a change in character and works (obeying the commandments) will normally result out of the character that is produced by real salvation.

Again, we do not "participate in our salvation" by helping to provide atonement for our salvation. Rather, we "participate in our salvation" by responding positively to the message of Christ's atonement, and by choosing to live in the righteousness that Christ has provided.

Even this is not true, Choosing to live in the righteousness that Christ has provided would fall under the category of works. Therefore choosing to live in the righteousness that Christ has provided is not a work that saves us; but it is a work that stems out of the salvation already given to us.

We have to do Christ's righteousness if we truly believe in it! We are not saved if we don't do it!

While this is true, it is a distortion of the truth; and a perversion of the real gospel. The reality is that if we are truly born again, we have been changed on the inside and we will do Christ's righteousness. But this is not to say that we must do Christ's righteousness in order to be saved. For we obtain salvation only through faith in Jesus and His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary. The righteousness that we do therefore, does not save us. If we are not saved, doing righteousness will have no effect on our salvation. If we are saved, then it stems out of a real salvation.

 

[Scoot]

I appreciate the good sentiment expressed in this, reasonably put. I assure you atonement was provided by Christ alone. The problem I'm expressing is a difficult one, because over centuries of Christianity words have taken on technical meanings, when the biblical language itself was less technical. That's why Luther could not understand James and his sense of Christian works, because Luther read into Paul's use of the word "works" a technical application, meaning self-atonement.

But "works" does not always mean "self-atonement" in its biblical use. Words mean what they mean in context. And so, I'm not trying to stir the pot, but trying to re-focus on John's burden to get us to demonstrate righteousness--not just believe in it.

To say we "participate in our salvation" is loaded with problems, when it is understood, in the usual way, as self-atonement. I was raised a Lutheran--I would normally read it like you do, or as "justbyfaith" does. But in order to clarify, I have to expose the problem. And to do that I have to show how the supposed technical expression distorts an important aspect of our involvement in Christ's salvation. We have to do Christ's righteousness if we truly believe in it! We are not saved if we don't do it!

None of this has a thing to do with self-atonement. It is the necessary response to that atonement, to bring that salvation into our lives. Sorry, it's difficult! :) It is certainly by grace--by Christ's free gift of atonement--that we are saved. But it does require that we truly accept it, by putting it into effect in our lives. We need to embrace the new righteous nature he died to give us.

My sense of works is not just a matter of "how we will spend eternity." Rather, it consists of the things we do to serve Christ in our new nature, in terms of being charitable and in terms of fulfilling our ministry. For unbelievers, it may mitigate their sins in eternity and reduce their punishment. Works are the free choices we make to cooperate with God's word, whether many or few. Regardless, it isn't how many good works we do that matters, but only the fact that we receive a new nature from Christ that qualifies for salvation.

Thanks for clarifying...

The way I understand what you're putting forward then is similar to this:

We can not earn our salvation by giving up and not practicing sin....

However when we are truly saved - as a result of our salvation we will no longer practice sin. (We may still slip up - but our heart is changed and we hate sin, we no longer want any part of it).

So in the same way - if I understand you correctly, you're saying that no works can have us saved, and works does not contribute towards salvation, but if we are truly saved -then works will be a natural flow from that salvation, just as no longer practicing sin is a natural result of one who has been truly saved? Am i correct in this understanding?

 

[Truther]

Thanks for clarifying...

The way I understand what you're putting forward then is similar to this:

We can not earn our salvation by giving up and not practicing sin....

However when we are truly saved - as a result of our salvation we will no longer practice sin. (We may still slip up - but our heart is changed and we hate sin, we no longer want any part of it).

So in the same way - if I understand you correctly, you're saying that no works can have us saved, and works does not contribute towards salvation, but if we are truly saved -then works will be a natural flow from that salvation, just as no longer practicing sin is a natural result of one who has been truly saved?

Per Romans 7, Paul teaches the flesh is not saved but the human spirit is.

That is exactly why death or the rapture is of necessity.

If the flesh(carnal man) lasted forever, nobody would see heaven.

 

[mjrhealth]

Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 make water baptism a requirement to find remission of sins and be saved.

Skipping this requirement is the last thing a believer should attempt.

It isnt a requirement since Pentecost,

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Johns baptism was from this earth, Christs baptism is from above, the Holy Spirit.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

And that was there baptism into the kingdom.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thanks for clarifying...

The way I understand what you're putting forward then is similar to this:

We can not earn our salvation by giving up and not practicing sin....

However when we are truly saved - as a result of our salvation we will no longer practice sin. (We may still slip up - but our heart is changed and we hate sin, we no longer want any part of it).

So in the same way - if I understand you correctly, you're saying that no works can have us saved, and works does not contribute towards salvation, but if we are truly saved -then works will be a natural flow from that salvation, just as no longer practicing sin is a natural result of one who has been truly saved?

I don't think that that is what he is saying at all....

 

[Helen]

nvm

I know that I am showing ignorance here...but what does “nvm “ in your posts mean ??

Thanks

 

[Joseph77]

I know that I am showing ignorance here...but what does “nvm “ in your posts mean ??

Thanks

Did you ever take a tiny sewing needle, and try to thread a 2 inch wide rope through the eye of the needle ?

Sometimes it "feels" like that here/ and in life. Seeing what is so simple and true, rejected by people of all ages, young to old,
all around .... 'trying' to speak truth, to show how easy healing is , if only God is trusted and obeyed...

After a while of trying to thread that wide rope through the eye of a tiny needle , it's time to give up that trying , so nvm. Never mind.

If people want truth, the truth that is absolute, the truth that God reveals freely to little children, it is joyous and delightful and leads to their salvation and healing. If they don't want the truth. If they hate Jesus, hate God and hate His followers, then it is not so joyous or delightful and , well, we can only hope and pray for the best outcome some day ....
Most all forums, few exceptions, most all threads , topics and posts, are not leading to the narrow road of life. The wide road is very popular, and even God does not take people off of that wide road when they want to stay there.... He never violates their free will , and their free will is not restricted , trained, nor disciplined in places open to the public, like Athens in the Bible - where idolatry is the normal daily for the vast majority.

 

[Joseph77]

LIke this post I just now read:

If you step out and challenge the status quo you are enemy number one.

Lot was not able to change sodom and gomorrah from their abuse of the poor and their gay perversion every day.
It sorely vexed his righteous soul.

The world today is that way, as in the days of NOAH.....

 

[Truther]

It isnt a requirement since Pentecost,

Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Johns baptism was from this earth, Christs baptism is from above, the Holy Spirit.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

And that was there baptism into the kingdom.

Acts 2:38 is a one time use doctrine?

 

[Joseph77]

Acts 2:38 is a one time use doctrine?

Do you think it has to be a doctrine ? What does Acts 2:38 say in your Bible (print it out if possible - for those whose screens it does not show up on, and to know what you/we/ are talking about the same thing )

 

[Truther]

Do you think it has to be a doctrine ? What does Acts 2:38 say in your Bible (print it out if possible - for those whose screens it does not show up on, and to know what you/we/ are talking about the same thing )

Yes, it says it(water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ) is for the remission of sins.

I would say it is the most important doctrine in the entire Bible, lest Jesus Christ died in vain.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for clarifying...

The way I understand what you're putting forward then is similar to this:

We can not earn our salvation by giving up and not practicing sin....

However when we are truly saved - as a result of our salvation we will no longer practice sin. (We may still slip up - but our heart is changed and we hate sin, we no longer want any part of it).

So in the same way - if I understand you correctly, you're saying that no works can have us saved, and works does not contribute towards salvation, but if we are truly saved -then works will be a natural flow from that salvation, just as no longer practicing sin is a natural result of one who has been truly saved? Am i correct in this understanding?

Actually, you're just using the usual language here. And as you interpret it, I would agree. But I'm using a different language to re-word the formula to emphasize what is often neglected . I'm trying to say that Works has value all on its own, whether the product of a pagan or a born-again Christian. Salvation requires that we choose to receive the new nature from Christ, along with the works, many or few, that we choose to do in that new nature. More works is, of course, better.

But even pagans can legitimately do good works, though not qualifying for salvation on this basis. Nobody qualifies for salvation in terms of self-atonement. We only qualify for salvation by choosing to accept the gift of Christ's new nature, bestowed upon those willing to put it into use.

The burden here is to suggest that choosing to receive a new nature is more than a superficial request. It is a real request for a nature such that the intent is really there to put the good works of that new nature into use. As I said, the Apostle John *required* that we *do* what Jesus said in order to qualify for fellowship with him. 1 John 2.3.

If you think *choosing* to receive Christ and *choosing* to obey his commandments is heresy, I have to wonder what Bible you're learning from? But use of this language has often been neutralized by the teaching that we cannot be saved by our works.

Again, my formula here tries to touch both bases. We are not saved by the works of self-atonement, but rather by the work of choosing to believe in Christ and receive the new nature he gives us. That new nature enables us to change internally to conform to that new nature. As such, we can not only do good works, as all men can, but we can also *want* to do good works, and choose to do them from a new heart.

To choose to receive Christ may not be well-expressed as a "work," because it is then thought, in knee-jerk fashion, that we're talking about self-atonement, or working to earn our salvation. But choosing to receive Christ is described, in some places, as a "work" simply because working is part of our salvation in the sense that if we wish to be saved, we must receive a new nature in which we naturally choose to do good works. We must want to do good works. But more importantly, we must want the new nature that makes us *want* to do good works. The latter is salvation, and it is a choice to do good. It is a good work!

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm trying to say that Works has value all on its own, whether the product of a pagan or a born-again Christian.

The works of an un-believing man or woman has the value equivalent to a filthy menstrual rag (Isaiah 64:6).

If you think *choosing* to receive Christ and *choosing* to obey his commandments is heresy, I have to wonder what Bible you're learning from?

Obviously, we cannot "will" ourselves to be born again (John 1:13, Romans 9:16). So if to choose salvation has anything to do with our will, it cannot save.

Now we can respond to the invitation that Christ offers us by being willing to accept His salvation. In this we relinquish our control over our own lives to live unrighteously and accept Christ's free gift of righteousness (Romans 5:17).

We are not saved by the works of self-atonement, but rather by the work of choosing to believe in Christ and receive the new nature he gives us.

It is not a matter of receiving a new nature; in the sense of turning over a new leaf: in which a man receives the power to live the Christian life by willing to live such a life.

No; a man must recognize that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour; and must appropriate Christ's shed blood to his own life so that his sins might be forgiven. Then, in receiving Christ Himself, the new nature is given.

But it does not come about by turning over a new leaf or by making a decision that I will do good works from now on.

It comes about with a contrition of heart over being a sinner; being sorry for your sin and accepting the remedy for the problem which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

It is the combining of Christ's Spirit with your spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20) that produces the new nature in you.

But it does not come about by any kind of repentance unless it is repentance towards Christ and you are receiving Him; what I mean by this is that you are not going to save yourself by changing your direction. Fact is, you are unable to change your direction (Jeremiah 13:23) or behaviour. Christ must come into your heart and begin to live His life in you and through you (Galatians 2:20) in order that you might walk in the perfection that He requires of you (1 John 3:9, Hebrews 10:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

 

[Randy Kluth]

The works of an un-believing man or woman has the value equivalent to a filthy menstrual rag (Isaiah 64:6).

Yes, we've had this argument before. My answer is as before--the "filthy rag" had to do with Israel's artificial religious ceremonies, designed to cover up their inward sins. It was a time of national apostasy. Paul used this as a form of hyperbole to demonstrate that if even a nation called to righteousness could not persist, as a nation, in doing good, then neither could any other nation or people.

It was an indictment upon all mankind as sinners, or those with a sin nature. Since the Fall of Man, the initial trespass, and all that followed, continue to prohibit anybody from attaining to salvation, and forbid a man from having eternal life.

That's why the Law and its works couldn't save, because Israel remained under the condemnation and sentence of sin. But once Christ had sacrificed for our eternal atonement, we were made eligible for salvation simply by our choice to receive it.

But you are wrong to say that pagans cannot do good. I gave you examples of those who did. It does not qualify them for salvation, but it is, nevertheless, what God has called all men to do. God also wishes that all men have salvation. But to do that we must choose not just to do good works--we must also choose to receive a new nature. Then we can do good works from a new heart.

Obviously, we cannot "will" ourselves to be born again (John 1:13, Romans 9:16). So if to choose salvation has anything to do with our will, it cannot save.

That's false. We must "will" to accept Christ. We must *choose* salvation!

Now we can respond to the invitation that Christ offers us by being willing to accept His salvation. In this we relinquish our control over our own lives to live unrighteously and accept Christ's free gift of righteousness (Romans 5:17).

You're contradicting yourself! 1st you say we can't *choose* salvation. Now you're saying we *can* choose salvation. Which is it?

I do think you're trying to make some kind of distinction. It is possible you're trying too hard?

It is not a matter of receiving a new nature; in the sense of turning over a new leaf: in which a man receives the power to live the Christian life by willing to live such a life.

Of course it is! What else would it be?

No; a man must recognize that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour; and must appropriate Christ's shed blood to his own life so that his sins might be forgiven. Then, in receiving Christ Himself, the new nature is given.

But it does not come about by turning over a new leaf or by making a decision that I will do good works from now on.

It comes about with a contrition of heart over being a sinner; being sorry for your sin and accepting the remedy for the problem which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Yes, that's part of "choosing Christ!" We receive a revelation from God, and then we embrace it. In accepting this revelation, we feel guilt for our sin, and also believe that in living through Him we can do good. It is all-important that we not just choose to do good, but to also receive the new nature. And that's because anything short of that is compromise and idolatry. If He is to be God at all, He must be God over the totality of our life. That means we must have an entirely new nature, not looking back to the sinful desires of the flesh to serve ourselves.

It is the combining of Christ's Spirit with your spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17, Ephesians 3:19-20) that produces the new nature in you.

But it does not come about by any kind of repentance unless it is repentance towards Christ and you are receiving Him; what I mean by this is that you are not going to save yourself by changing your direction. Fact is, you are unable to change your direction (Jeremiah 13:23) or behaviour. Christ must come into your heart and begin to live His life in you and through you (Galatians 2:20) in order that you might walk in the perfection that He requires of you (1 John 3:9, Hebrews 10:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

I don't know why you continue to assert that I'm talking about "saving myself?" I've told you enough times that I don't believe in self-atonement! What I'm asserting is that our *will* must truly be involved. We can't passively wait for God to do things for us. He asks us to respond, and so we must.

 

[justbyfaith]

That's false. We must "will" to accept Christ. We must *choose* salvation!

Jhn 1:13, Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16, So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

You're contradicting yourself! 1st you say we can't *choose* salvation. Now you're saying we *can* choose salvation. Which is it?

I do think you're trying to make some kind of distinction. It is possible you're trying too hard?

No, it is not that a man can choose salvation; but that a man can respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit and receive salvation by receiving Jesus Christ when He stands at the door and knocks.

If Jesus isn't knocking at any moment, a man is powerless to receive Christ: he cannot choose to be saved by an act of his own will.

He must be willing to surrender when God calls upon him to submit his life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ; when God calls him to salvation.

This is a limited window of opportunity for so many; and if they pass it up, they will not be able to later choose to receive Christ if He is not at that time standing at the door and knocking.

Psa 32:6, For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

Isa 55:6, Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7, Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Scoot]

Thanks for replying Randy - I think I get where you're coming from - is it more a debate on Calvin vs Arminian?

As I understand it - Calvin's believe that we have zero part in our salvation - it is God entirely, who chooses, elects and so forth, and if we're not chosen, we're doomed - nothing we can do.

Arminian's as I understand it believe that we do play a part - we can choose whether or not to accept what Christ has done. Calvin's believe that we don't even have this ability.

If what you are saying is that Christ has done everything, and that works (good actions) play no part in salvation - however us 'working out our salvation' by being willing to hear and receive Jesus is not 'works' of itself but something that brings us to repentance and salvation - then I think I understand where you're coming from. Sorry it's taken so long for me to get my head around it.

My understanding is that I do believe that we need to choose - to repent - that we have a choice - that we can choose Christ, or we can reject Him. I don't know if I am right - there are better men than I who have studied far more, and have no doubt spent far more time in prayer and fasting than I who are on both sides of the debate. I certainly don't believe that choosing Christ, and choosing to obey is heresay at all - rather I think it's scriptural - but the motive behind it is the key factor.

An example I would use to parallel is two husbands that buy flowers for their wives.

One does it because he loves his wife so much that the flowers are simply an extension of his love. He doesn't feel he has to do it - it's because of his love he does it.

The other buys flower for his wife because he feels compelled to do it. he does these 'good works' to earn / keep the relationship not because of love, but what he can 'get' out of the marriage. (In fact, he may be flirting with another woman but wants to 'keep' the marriage because of how he benefits - I see parallels with some in the church with this - they want salvation, but not Christ)....

Both are the same actions - but from very different motives. In Matthew 5 Jesus fulfills the law by showing it's not about our outward action, but it's about our heart, our motives that God is interested in.

The first husband is doing no wrong - even though they do the same as the second husband - he desires to bless his wife, and it's not through manipulation, gold digging, etc.

As such I see similar parallels with the church:

Two Christians go about doing good works.

The first does them because of his love and appreciation to Christ and what Christ has done for him. He wants to please Christ because of his love.

The second does them to try and earn acceptance or salvation, or because they're tied up in a cult, or deceived by legalism. he still loves the world, but wants a foot in each side.

The first Christian is doing no wrong, yet can be judged because others have dealt with the likes of the second, so see the first as being legalistic - where in fact - the first is doing exactly what Jesus said. "Those who love me obey my commandments".

If this parallels with what you are saying I think I get it. I do think though you made a mistake by choosing to call this thread "Works" - because I wouldn't call it works at all, any more that I would call reaching out and accepting a gift from someone 'works' towards that gift.

 

[DPMartin]

Works. There is a lot of confusion in the Christian World about Works. Paul spoke a lot about how Works did not justify us, that Christ's atonement alone covered our sins. He spoke a lot about how the Jews were no longer under the Law, that the Works of the Law are no longer valid, that Christ's Law alone is valid, which is based on faith in the atonement of Christ.

.

here Paul gets to the point with a lot less text:


Co 3:10　 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.　
1Co 3:11　 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.　
1Co 3:12　 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;　
1Co 3:13　 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.　
1Co 3:14　 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.　
1Co 3:15　 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.　


simple if it be of God it remains with God in God's Presence, if it be otherwise then it remains with what it is of.

as far as what Paul means by "he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" Paul quotes Moses in another book:

Heb_12:29　 For our God is a consuming fire.