Salvation Through Baptism ???
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Okay, to start, Let's check out this just in English -
"If both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water to be baptized when did Philip pronounced the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" seeing both were under the water, immersed? THERE IS NO WAY COULD PHILIP UTTER THOSE WORDS AS BOTH WERE SUBMERGED UNDER WATER! "
Philip never pronounced those words.
Philip was not under the water.
See ?
Really, the scriptures do say something very differently.
Acts 8:38-39: - 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
The phase, "went down into the water" is better paraphrased as: - "stepped down into the water." where Philip then proceeded to baptise the eunuch but the passage is silent as to what words Philip may have said over the eunuch.
Joseph77, another scriptural furphy on your part.
One thing I do not trust is the tradition of men.
The Lord has placed all things pertaining to life and godliness within the pages of the bible according to (2Peter 1:3).
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
All need to do is read the NT and learn about Gods plan of salvation. (Eph.3:3,4).
Marymog said:
How do we as Christians identify the genuine born again believers? What criteria do YOU use?
Tong said:
God's words in scriptures.
Mostly in the NT epistles, scriptures tells us about the children of God. I think I need not quote every scripture in this regard. You can just go on and read the Bible. Now, just bear in mind that, those born again are those born of God, that is, the children of God. And that, their former self were dead in sin. They were formerly, in that sense, dead.
You said "For 2,000 years Men have used Scripture to identify the genuine born again believers. For 2,000 years they have disagreed on who is a genuine born again believer." That is not at all surprising. For men could only tell according to what they hear a man says and what they see the works that the man do. But you know very well that the matter of having been born again is a matter of the spirit ~ in the heart of the man. So that, no man could really be absolutely correct in his judgement, for no man truly knows the heart of man except God. And that I think is one of the main reason why so many have disagreed on who is a genuinely born again Christian. But for sure, it will start with him being a believer in God and in Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ.
Observe. Christians throughout history, one way or the other, have been divided. And this division, more often than not, was because of selfish pride, wanting to be better off than others, in that sense, exalting themselves over another. They themselves caused such division which is sin, one I could say is a work of evil in which Satan rejoices in. I think that one begins to walk away from the unity that is in Christ, when he or she begins to look elsewhere other than Jesus Christ. For even in the days of the apostles, the church were guilty of this. Paul, in his letter to the the church of God which is at Corinth, had spoken of such. That there are contentions among them, each saying "I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” But is Christ divided? Certainly not. This even led to Paul saying "I thank God that I baptized none of you......", which only expresses his dismay and apprehension on such serious matter.
So, let the Christian cease from such work and work to strive instead for the unity that is in Jesus Christ. For that is one of the good things that a genuinely born again Christian strives to do. For I believe that any one who claims to be a Christian but works to divide the believers in the Lord Jesus Christ in any way, shape or form, is at least indicative that he/she might not be a genuine child of God, as such work is antiChrist.
Tong
R0820
How do we as Christians identify the genuine born again believers? What criteria do YOU use?
Tong said:
God's words in scriptures.
I thought my statement was self explanatory. Anyway....
Mostly in the NT epistles, scriptures tells us about the children of God. I think I need not quote every scripture in this regard. You can just go on and read the Bible. Now, just bear in mind that, those born again are those born of God, that is, the children of God. And that, their former self were dead in sin. They were formerly, in that sense, dead.
You said "For 2,000 years Men have used Scripture to identify the genuine born again believers. For 2,000 years they have disagreed on who is a genuine born again believer." That is not at all surprising. For men could only tell according to what they hear a man says and what they see the works that the man do. But you know very well that the matter of having been born again is a matter of the spirit ~ in the heart of the man. So that, no man could really be absolutely correct in his judgement, for no man truly knows the heart of man except God. And that I think is one of the main reason why so many have disagreed on who is a genuinely born again Christian. But for sure, it will start with him being a believer in God and in Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ.
Observe. Christians throughout history, one way or the other, have been divided. And this division, more often than not, was because of selfish pride, wanting to be better off than others, in that sense, exalting themselves over another. They themselves caused such division which is sin, one I could say is a work of evil in which Satan rejoices in. I think that one begins to walk away from the unity that is in Christ, when he or she begins to look elsewhere other than Jesus Christ. For even in the days of the apostles, the church were guilty of this. Paul, in his letter to the the church of God which is at Corinth, had spoken of such. That there are contentions among them, each saying "I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” But is Christ divided? Certainly not. This even led to Paul saying "I thank God that I baptized none of you......", which only expresses his dismay and apprehension on such serious matter.
So, let the Christian cease from such work and work to strive instead for the unity that is in Jesus Christ. For that is one of the good things that a genuinely born again Christian strives to do. For I believe that any one who claims to be a Christian but works to divide the believers in the Lord Jesus Christ in any way, shape or form, is at least indicative that he/she might not be a genuine child of God, as such work is antiChrist.
Tong
R0820
Tong2020 said:
If that is the case for you, then by all means, get yourself baptized for you to be saved. And perhaps, you go about preaching the gospel of baptism, that baptism saves.
But wait, should you not first believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
The truth is, an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ does not get to be baptized. That is something I think that no genuinely born again Christian would deny and argue against.
You wanted for us to look into the matter of calling on the name of the Lord. Well, let's do that. Consider:
Romans 10: 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
That's plain and clear enough.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
That even is very plain and very clear. Faith is it, not anything else, not even water baptism. In other words, an unbeliever obviously will not call on God whom he does not believe in. That is very basic and a sense so common to man. For even the idolater calls on to his god because he believes in it. There are many gods (false), yet he does not call on all of them, but only calls on the one he believes in.
Tong
R0821
If that is the case for you, then by all means, get yourself baptized for you to be saved. And perhaps, you go about preaching the gospel of baptism, that baptism saves.
But wait, should you not first believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
That would be abnormal.
The truth is, an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ does not get to be baptized. That is something I think that no genuinely born again Christian would deny and argue against.
You wanted for us to look into the matter of calling on the name of the Lord. Well, let's do that. Consider:
Romans 10: 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
That's plain and clear enough.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
That even is very plain and very clear. Faith is it, not anything else, not even water baptism. In other words, an unbeliever obviously will not call on God whom he does not believe in. That is very basic and a sense so common to man. For even the idolater calls on to his god because he believes in it. There are many gods (false), yet he does not call on all of them, but only calls on the one he believes in.
Tong
R0821
Tong2020 said:
Acts 8: 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Regarding the jailer, the apostles would not had baptized him if he first did not believe, as could be understood in the passage concerning the eunuch.
But this is what we have in the passage relative to that. The eunuch, that he MAY only be baptized, IF he BELIEVES with all of his heart in obviously what Philip preached to him, that is, Jesus. The eunuch asked Philip "What hinders me from being baptized?" The hindrance would be unbelief.
Tong
R0822
Acts 8: 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Regarding the jailer, the apostles would not had baptized him if he first did not believe, as could be understood in the passage concerning the eunuch.
The passage does not say. We could only but guess. And there are many possibilities as to that matter. I could guess what your guess is, that is, that Philip told him that unless he is water baptized, he will not be saved. But then, that is just a guess.
But this is what we have in the passage relative to that. The eunuch, that he MAY only be baptized, IF he BELIEVES with all of his heart in obviously what Philip preached to him, that is, Jesus. The eunuch asked Philip "What hinders me from being baptized?" The hindrance would be unbelief.
Tong
R0822
Two IMMEDIATE "red flags" to me are denying the Deity of Jesus and eternal Hell fire.
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@mailmandan
I could not find in scriptures where it says "Belief and Faith in Christ + Repentance + Baptism + Communion....is the "Way" to Heaven", do you? And perhaps the dots (....) would be + doing good works + doing confession + doing penance, and perhaps there are more.
But this is what I find in scriptures concerning the way to the Father who is in heaven:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Tong
R0823
I could not find in scriptures where it says "Belief and Faith in Christ + Repentance + Baptism + Communion....is the "Way" to Heaven", do you? And perhaps the dots (....) would be + doing good works + doing confession + doing penance, and perhaps there are more.
But this is what I find in scriptures concerning the way to the Father who is in heaven:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Tong
R0823
When someone obtains Christian salvation it is a learning process. The thief on the cross confessed that he believed in Jesus. That's all he could do. He obtained salvation.
Romans 10
9 if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10
9 if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No one can add or take away from the Way to Salvation..."Belief and Faith in Christ + Repentance + Baptism + Communion....
No scriptures says the words that the thief was saved...achieved salvation...or went to heaven.
"Two IMMEDIATE "red flags" to me are denying the Deity of Jesus and eternal Hell fire."
Agree with the red flags....Speaking of "red flags" you can add those that contribute the characteristics of Satan to God. Like God damns people before they are born and denys free-will as well as support abortion.
No scriptures says the words that the thief was saved...achieved salvation...or went to heaven.
"Two IMMEDIATE "red flags" to me are denying the Deity of Jesus and eternal Hell fire."
Agree with the red flags....Speaking of "red flags" you can add those that contribute the characteristics of Satan to God. Like God damns people before they are born and denys free-will as well as support abortion.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Amen! Neither could I find that multi-step plan of salvation in scripture. I was recently in a discussion with someone on a different Christian forum who attends the church of Christ and he made this statement below:
A person who has never heard the gospel:
1. Hears the gospel - still lost
2. Believes It - still lost
3. Repents of their sins - still lost
4. Confesses Jesus - still lost
5. Water baptized for the forgiveness of sins, saved.
Notice how this person reversed the scriptural order of "repent and believe the gospel" in his 5 step gospel plan and his 5 step gospel plan is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. The Bible sometimes only mentions repentance as a condition for salvation. One example of this would be Luke 13:3, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." See also Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19 etc.. A few times both repentance and believe/faith are mentioned in the same verse (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). There are many, many verses which only mention belief/faith as a condition for salvation (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Philippians 3:9; Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
When only repentance is mentioned as a condition for salvation, belief/faith is implied or assumed. When only belief/faith is mentioned as a condition for salvation, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. If we truly repented, then we believe the gospel and if we believe the gospel, then we already repented in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe the gospel/place faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. *Not so with baptism. *You can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18).
According to scripture, those who believe the gospel are saved. (Romans 1:16) So step (2. Believe It - still lost) is FALSE.
According to scripture, those who repent (belief/faith is implied or assumed) are converted (Acts 3:19) and repentance (believed in the Lord Jesus Christ implied or assumed - Acts 11:17) is unto life. (Acts 11:18) So step (3. Repents of their sins - still lost) is FALSE.
According to scripture, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9,10) So step (4. Confess Jesus - still lost) is FALSE.
Now of course confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service," merely reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" from a check list of steps not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
So instead of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the correct plan of salvation, this person instead, distorts and perverts passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" his so called gospel plan.
I see what you are saying there and I could agree with you.
When one begins to turn away from Jesus Christ, there comes about a different gospel, to which they turn to, which is not another gospel, but is a perverted version of the gospel of Christ. What I mean by that is that, while they talk about Jesus Christ, they actually preach a different gospel, a gospel different from the gospel that the apostles preached.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
There simply are no steps to salvation that a person could do to be saved or steps to salvation that a person could follow and do to save himself. For sure, salvation is the work of God, not man's. God is Him who saves the man and not the man saving himself. What things one may mistakenly see as steps to salvation are the results of the working of God in saving the man.
Tong
R0829
Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water;
How did the eunuch learn of water?
Keep in mind they are in the desert and still the eunuch was looking for water.
Scenarios do not change the word of God.
Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)
(Mark 16:16) And (Acts 3:19) both harmonize with what the COC member taught from what I can tell.
Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)
Repent + Converted = Sins Blotted Out (Acts 3:19)
Arise + Be Baptized = Wash Away Your Sins (Acts 22:16)
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The Apostle (Messenger) who was told to go and make disciples teaching them all .....
Told him obediently.
OR,
it was already knowledge spread thru part(s) of the world....
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
"From what you can tell" based on your biased opinion, but not in actuality.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief, which is in harmony with what Jesus said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). So what happened to baptism in those passages of scripture? Nobody seems to have a legitimate answer to that question.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It's not repent + converted, but repent (change of mind - new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/so faith is implied or assumed) results in conversion. Water salvationists will try in vain to substitute the word "converted" with "baptism" but that argument is flawed.
Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation? if you'll even bother to read it.
In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been water baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear [His] name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not God’s portion for one still lost in their sins. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO. God accepted Paul’s prayers before his baptism (Acts 9:11). People in the church of Christ teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and then setting out to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized.
So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that Paul received his sight prior to receiving water baptism.
*No Scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.*
Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ.
Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160].
Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Yes, For a nano-second long billions of nano-seconds in the past,
I wondered about that until the Father revealed this:
Whoever does not believe is condemned.
Whoever does not believe does not get immersed in Jesus' Name.
The Scribes and Pharisees rejected Jesus, and were not immersed.
Marymog
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- Mar 7, 2017
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Thank you.
According to scripture (not your theory highlighted in blue) the division amongst men occurred because some men were teaching a different doctrine then what the Apostles taught. They did not hold to the sound doctrine that was taught by word of mouth, in the written letter or by tradition. Hence false doctrines taught by false teachers crept into the Christian community. As we know some men twist Scripture to their own destruction.
I think I need not quote every scripture in this regard.
So how do YOU identify the men who are false teachers who twist Scripture to their own destruction?
Thank you for your time....Mary
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