Salvation Through Baptism ???

[BreadOfLife]

Are you saying you don't even know what the keys are? And you're Catholic?

Like I told you, the Keys are Authority.

Your Scriptural ignorance is pretty astounding . . .

 

[Mr C]

"Keys" are used to unlock or open something. Usually the keys are used to get into something. The "KEYS" Jesus gave to Peter were "WORDS" by which people were to enter the church and be saved (Acts 2:38,47 ; 11:14). Sadly many people have used the wrong words to try and save people.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Ac 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

 

[kcnalp]

The Greek in Acts 9:31 is the same in ALL Bibles, Einstein.

In ALL Bibles? You can't even name one!

 

[BreadOfLife]

No "Catholic" "Einstein."
In ALL Bibles? You can't even name one!

Look at the Greek, junior:
Ekklesia kata holos = Catholic Church.

 

[kcnalp]

Look at the Greek, junior:
Ekklesia kata holos = Catholic Church.

Junior? You can't even name one Christian Bible that agrees with you. I have 37 Christian Bibles that say you're wrong.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Junior? You can't even name one Christian Bible that agrees with you. I have 37 Christian Bibles that say you're wrong.

ALL of your Protestant translations are based off of the Greek - directly or indirectly, Einstein.
Didn't you know that??

 

[kcnalp]

ALL of your Protestant translations are based off of the Greek - directly or indirectly, Einstein.
Didn't you know that??

What are your qualifications for declaring all of our English Bibles wrong? Oh that's right, you don't have any.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What are your qualifications for declaring all of our English Bibles wrong? Oh that's right, you don't have any.

They're NOT wrong - YOU are - because you're too dense to understand that the Bible wasn't written in English.

The NT was written in Koine Greek.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have 37 Christian Bibles that say you're wrong.

If you have 37 Bibles and you DON'T know that they weren't originally written in English - then you're in trouble, junior . . .

 

[kcnalp]

If you have 37 Bibles and you DON'T know that they weren't originally written in English - then you're in trouble, junior . . .

Imagine being so arrogant to say you know more about Greek than all of our Bible translators.

 

[kcnalp]

They're NOT wrong - YOU are -

You're the one trying to rewrite our English Bibles. Pay attention. Read your own posts.

 

[kcnalp]

ALL of your Protestant translations are based off of the Greek - directly or indirectly, Einstein.
Didn't you know that??

And they all say you're wrong. "Einstein", Didn't you know that?

The Pope can't help you now and he won't help you on Judgment Day.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@BreadOfLife and @kcnalp, you both are off topic on this thread. Get back on topic, please. Thank you.
And try to debate in a civil manner, thank you.

 

[Tong2020]

Of course you have no problem with John 6:44 for it is Scripture. If you have faith why then do you need to exercise it? You will not need to for the Father will draw you which of course, is the only criteria for any individual to become saved. And, that is God's relation to salvation!

You ask me that same question again and again. Why? I've answered it and every time, you don't have even a word to say in reply nor a word of refutation. So, why ask it again and again? Refute my answer to allow for a meaningful discussion.

Also, I already told you, the Father's drawing is not a criterion for salvation, but is the working of God in relation to His saving.

No, I don't believe God saves through faith, and that is one of many doctrines not as plain and simple, that these two said verses are not understood.

1) For by grace (love)
2) Are you saved through faith (whose faith, man's? No way! Yourself have admitted it is God that saves)
3) And that not of yourselves (here, in black and white, is the answer)
4) It is the gift of God (through no merits of man and undeserved)
5) Not of works (faith)
6) Lest any man should boast (that man somehow wants to have some kind of credit to have a part in his salvation)

Ephesians 2:8-9
1) For by grace (Unmerited, undeserved. Sovereignly and freely given out of love and mercy, according to His will, purpose, pleasure, glory.)
2) Are you saved through faith (Did I say that faith is from man? I did not. Faith comes from God. That God saves through faith can't be denied there which the passage says so plainly and clearly. How a person gets to have faith is the working of God in relation to His saving the individual. And faith, once it comes to the individual and have it, in a sense becomes his possession. And God wants him to put it to work and produce fruits of repentance, obedience unto good works, conforming him to be in the image of Jesus Christ.)
3) And that not of yourselves (As stated)
4) It is the gift of God (As stated).
5,6) Not of works Lest any man should boast (Not something that comes from the individual's ability and doing for which he may boast off before God as though God is obligated to save him or that he merited and deserves to be saved by Him.)

You got it right that I don't believe God saves through faith! Faith is a gift from Him to us, besides it being a work.

I could agree that faith is a gift, in the sense that it comes from God and comes to man, which otherwise man would not have if God had not brought His words to his hearing with God enabling him to hear or understand. I don't agree that faith is work. Faith, like love, hope, trust, confidence, reliance, to name a few, are not works, as what work is according to man, but are God-given spiritual virtues, that produce in the man, that which is pleasing to God.

Oh, I do understand perfectly well what God had conveyed in Titus 3:5. Just because you don't understand does not mean some of us don't.

Titus 3:5

1) "Not by works of righteousness" (funny how the word 'works' keeps popping up)
2) "which we have done" (works that we did)
3) "but according to his mercy" (love)
4) "He saved us by the washing of regeneration" (washing = baptism/baptizo)
5) "renewing of the Holy Spirit" (renewal, a complete change in us)

Does my expounding of Titus 3:5 above suffice or do you have a better explanation?

To God Be The Glory

So you claim to understand it perfectly. Without pointing it out in detail, I am sure enough that you don't perfectly understand it. And in the same language you use, not that you claim to perfectly understand it means you in fact do and I don't.

Titus 3:5
1,2) Not by works of righteousness which we have done (Not because of good works we have done or because of our righteous behavior on the basis of deeds)
3) but according to his mercy (according to God's mercy)
4) He saved us by the washing of regeneration (God saved us. How? By regeneration or a creating anew ~ a rebirth, which Paul figuratively describes as a "washing", that is, a cleansing. The original Greek text is not baptizo, but is "loutron", which means a washing, a bath, different from an immersion or baptism. Besides, the "washing" there is only descriptive of the real act of God, that is, regeneration.)
5) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (in conjunction with the regeneration, as sort of speaking about the rebirth, as with a change of the individual's former heart and life unto a new heart and a new and righteous and holy life. And that is of God, through the working of the Holy Spirit in the individual.)

So, as I pointed out, there is no word "baptism" or "baptize" there JC. Not even in the original Greek text, can you find the Greek word "baptizo" or "baptismos". Perhaps, some Christians would take the "washing", having bias with the action of water, as symbolic of baptism. But as for me, I find no reason to inject baptism in such passage where it is not even mentioned nor hinted. But even if it is symbolic, the symbol is not what is spoken of, but the very reality behind the symbol is. And so goes my understanding of said scriptures.

Tong
R0890

 

[Tong2020]

He expected all believers to be baptized, and He promised salvation to those who believed and were baptized...

Your said it yourself, He expected all believers to be baptized. Baptism is for them disciples, the believers. And scriptures says a lot about them believers. Among the many verses, I'll refer you to 1 John 5:13, which speaks the truth of the matter that believers have eternal life. These are they who are expected to be baptized. And that is not to have eternal life or be saved. For they are already saved through faith, that is, when they believed.

Tong
R0891

 

[marksman]

You said, "What saves people is repentance AND BAPTISM." (post #830). Unless you changed your mind.

And I had disagreed with your statement there. See my post #883.

Tong
R0878

You haven't answered my question. What don't you understand about that?

 

[Tong2020]

THE ERROR OF USING GOOD WORKS INTERCHANGEABLY WITH WORKS OF THE LAW AS IF THEY MEAN THE SAME THING OCCURS IN EVERY FORUM ON THE INTERNET EVERY DAY AND TWICE ON SUNDAYS.

No objection with that. But my comment remains "You cannot generalize that with Paul nor with James. Doing so would also lead to error."

Now since you touched on Ephesians 2:8-9 in your post, I'd like to comment on that.

Eph. 2:8-9 – we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

Eph. 2:10 – in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul’s teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” – a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right with the matter of "works" there. But it does not follow that, good works other than the "works of the law" could be reason or basis of our justification. And it does not also follow that because you attribute these good works to God makes such works additionally be reason or basis of our justification. For the truth remains, that no man can justify himself before God, nothing that man could offer nor do to justify himself before God, even so then, his doing of such good works which you say you attribute to God. That is why, there is this salvation matter, and there is this matter that no one that God saves have anything to boast before God. And if there is none that we can boast about, there is none that comes from us, be it works of the law, or other good works, or anything for that matter, that could be required of us or that we could do, in the matter of our salvation. So, if it is your position that those good works, are works you necessarily must do for justification, it undeniably means that your justification somehow depends on you and not entirely on God, no matter how you work around to get that off, by making them appear to be not yours and attribute them as God's.

Interestingly you mentioned Ephesians 2:10, which says "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." For this very verse refutes the very position you take. For the "we" there refers to the church, whom Paul said are God's workmanship. As being God's workmanship is explained there as the work of God's creation of us in Jesus Christ. So, we are then, a new creation of God in Jesus Christ. And if so we are, we have been already saved, as was declared in verse 8. And for what reason God created us anew in Jesus Christ, is for good works, which is obviously not so that we may be justified or additionally justified by such good works. No, for as had been shown, we already are saved and so were already justified.

Tong
R0892

 

[kcnalp]

Luke 23
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Amen Jesus!

 

[Tong2020]

Let’s look at context. 1 Timothy is a pastoral letter telling Timothy how bishops and deacons should act in the household of God. Paul tells Timothy he may be delayed and if he is how Timothy should act: : I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and Bulwark of truth.

So what is that household of God? It CANNOT be each individual Christian so it must be The Church; bishops and deacons. As we know they are worthy of double honor because they are looking out for and responsible for your soul....just like scripture says

Right, not an individual Christian, but the church of God. And it does not say, Roman Catholic church, nor it say Catholic Church nor it say Baptist Church nor it say Church of Christ church. It simply is the church, whose head is Jesus Christ, the Lord. In apostolic times, we read about the church, that is at Rome, that is at Corinth, that is at Thessalonica, that is at Macedonia, that is at Jerusalem, that is at Galatia, that is at Ephesus, that is at Philippi, that is at Colosse, and of which Paul even said elsewhere, "Likewise greet the church that is in their house."

There is no issue that, in the church, there are bishops and deacons, elders, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. But it must be realized that, if only them, they are not the church.

As I have noticed, I read about bishops and deacons, elders, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the church, but how about priests? Are there priest in the church? If so, who are the priests in the church?

Tong
R0893

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, it was called by a single name: The Church

In the year 107 it was first called the Catholic Church. What church (denomination) do you belong too? When did it get named and by whom?

Oh, is that so? So why change what is written in scriptures? Is that not forbidden, to tamper with the words of God in scriptures? By the way, was that name given by any of the chosen apostles of Christ? Obviously not. So that, nowhere can we find any of the apostles referring to the church by such name. No inspired chosen apostle of Jesus Christ was instructed to name the church as Catholic Church. So, you can only point to others as have come up with that name and believe that they have the authority to do that and change God's words in scriptures. Now, if there be anything that identifies the church today, it is not by what name someone called it by, but by the spirit, doctrine or teachings and the gospel they preach. As Paul have warned the church in his days saying, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." Such person and those who congregate with him and believe and preach any other gospel other than what the apostles preached as written and found in scriptures, they are all accursed and so are not among the church, the house/household of God, regardless of what they believe is the name of the church.

Tong
R0894