my reply soon..
Maybe you missed my question to you Bullfighter so I reposted it. Looking forward to your answer.
The Sabbath...keep It Forever With Works!
- Thread starter whirlwind
- Start date
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DAH,everyday is the lords so what does that have to do with what you read about the sabbath..read it yourself you got a brain ask god to help you....you just set the line towitch we can say what we read......................................................................................................
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know i am not talking about the saved by law or die if you don't .i am saying the thing has not been put out and there is two much around it to easy wipe it out with yourbrianwashed following the wordly thing of it...read the thing all there is, god will aid you . how we keep it. well you till me how you would keep it.
I hope you haven't forgotten my question Bullfighter? I am very curious as to how you keep/celebrate the sabbath.
well i am on the path to honor it also i reconize the truth of it,i am tring to find out why god made it so speacial in away that i know him better as it says in the bible...i know that.. sence i accepted the truth of it not the so called legalizum of it my spirit is peacefull and now that i know that sunday was a man made day by one of the worlds biggest decievers my spirit is not calm about sunday worship.so to speak the holy spirit gives me truth about that...i do not keep perfect [what ever perfect is] .i just reconize it as truth and feel blessed from that knowing it is one of the true sabbaths..i am sure i would fail to do it, to any letter of the law...like i commete lust with my eyes ..or covet...even tho i learn and grow in my dicipline ....not to get me saved but to increace my blessing and relationship with god......now that my eyes are opened on the sub,i see so clearly the falsehood that we as a people put on ourselves..i would only say instead of defending sunday just try the sabbath with the knowing it is the sabbath[no questions] do not try to prove it right or wrong just no that that is the sabbath and you are tring to keep it holy or honor it..do not get mixed up in church stuff or others tring to persade you this way or that way...just know that it was the sabbath and take it for a test drive...my biggest question why is it hard to do sat what people do on sunday. it is the true sabbath,everyday is the lords fine ggyfly' date='08 January 2010 -
12:55 PM' timesta
mp='126295
5336' post='77019']
I hope you haven't forgotten my question Bullfighter? I am very curious as to how you keep/celebrate the sabbath.
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12:55 PM' timesta
mp='126295
5336' post='77019']
I hope you haven't forgotten my question Bullfighter? I am very curious as to how you keep/celebrate the sabbath.
[/quote]
Bullfighter
Please get off your soapbox you have chosen to live by the law not grace therefore you are codeming yourself to spiritual death for man can not live by the law it is to perfect. So he sent Christ to die for our sins..... thats all sins.So even if you were right ...which your not ......Christ already died for all sin... Christ is our rest for this very reason he already paid the price ... reguardless of your denial to the contrary
Yet you have decided he only died for the sins you decide he died for
if you want to live by the law instead of grace your choice but get of your Sabbath day soapbox.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
that no man includes you
I have listened to your go about this for 2 years and you still deny Christs grace
Please get off your soapbox you have chosen to live by the law not grace therefore you are codeming yourself to spiritual death for man can not live by the law it is to perfect. So he sent Christ to die for our sins..... thats all sins.So even if you were right ...which your not ......Christ already died for all sin... Christ is our rest for this very reason he already paid the price ... reguardless of your denial to the contrary
Yet you have decided he only died for the sins you decide he died for
if you want to live by the law instead of grace your choice but get of your Sabbath day soapbox.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
that no man includes you
I have listened to your go about this for 2 years and you still deny Christs grace
tku you for your last comment,now i know you are off your rocker.i did aways have a thought to learn more on this because of the things you said....i am not under the law any more then you.i understand what you say about the law but you are in left field about my point..i need not fuid about it..i guess you have more to learn..no soap box here dear sister in yeshua........and you know what missy there are benifits in the feasts also .one hint do not fear the law , you are not saved by it ,how are you condemed by it then ...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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I was more interested in how you keep it what you do or don't do on Saturday to "keep it holy".
well i stop thinking of the many things i have to do,try to open my mind to the lord with out many daily things from interfering..seeking some thing from him or the spirit that gives me the joy or peace of doing, shareing,letting it be about me and god... reading the bible finding truth...on that day well you ask god he made it...i am just test riding it...
y' date='08 January 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1262986489' post='77034']
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y' date='08 January 2010 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1262986489' post='77034']
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So do you feel those who celebrate it on Sunday are void of this same experience?
I want to continue this study so we can all come to
agreement with the scriptures. This subject is a bit
emotional and some Christians get upset because
they know they are right but, as Christians, we must
speak the "Truth In Love". Hebrews 4:2,
2 For indeed we have had good news [the Gospel]
preached to us, just as they also; but the word they
heard did not profit them, because it was not united
by faith in those who heard.
The first thing to note is that the Gospel, “good news,” did
not begin with the New Testament. It was preached to the
Israelites as well. Any word from God is the Gospel,
whether veiled or openly preached with understanding.
The gospel of the cross was preached to Israel by means
of the Passover Lamb and its specific ceremonies. Though
the people did not understand the prophetic significance of
their actions, it still required a certain amount of faith to be
obedient.
To summarize Hebrews 4:2, Israel refused to hear God
(Ex. 20:18-21). Since faith comes by hearing, the result of
their refusal was insufficient faith to enter the Promised
Land the following year. Having Moses tell them what God
said was no substitute for hearing God directly or indirectly.
So they fell short of the promise (vs. 1) because the word
was not united by faith in those who heard at the base of
Mount Sinai.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has
said, “As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of
the world.
It is assumed everywhere in the New Testament that believers
would be able to hear God's voice and follow the leading of the
Spirit. This is the essence of the Christian life once he or she
has been justified by faith. Whereas Israel had refused to hear
at that Sinai Pentecost, the disciples had gone up to the upper
room to hear His voice in Acts 2. The disciples succeeded
where Israel had failed.
So it was assumed that everyone would be a true Pentecostal
in those days. It was assumed that everyone would at least
strive to follow the example of Caleb and Joshua. It was
assumed that everyone had gotten past Mount Sinai and was
on the way toward the Promised Land to fulfill the feast of
Tabernacles.
The last part of verse 3 connects with verses 4 and 5. In fact,
verses 4 and 5 explain the last part of verse 3:
3... although His works were finished from the foundation
of the world. 4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning
the seventh day, “And God rested on the seventh day from
all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not
enter My rest.”
It is obvious that entering God's rest is the equivalent of
entering the Promised Land. How was this God's rest?
The idea of resting comes from the law of the Sabbaths,
which in turn were based upon the pattern of God's rest
on the seventh day of creation (Gen. 2:2, 3). But the law
expounds further upon this idea, for it sets forth three
levels of rest, each based upon a different type of Sabbath,
as was explained in my earlier post.
The fulfillment of this “rest” or Sabbath is explained in
Hebrews 4:10 and 11,
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself
also rested from his works, as God did from His.
This verse summarizes Isaiah's teaching on the Day of
Atonement and the Jubilee. Isaiah 58 speaks of “the fast
which I have chosen ” (the fast on the Day of Atonement),
showing the intent of God in this. It is not that God is
interested in eating no food on that day, nor does God
delight in people dressing in sackcloth and ashes. He
tells us in Isaiah 58:6 that God intended the Day of
Atonement to be the Jubilee:
6 Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds
of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let
the oppressed go free, and break every yoke?
In verses 13 and 14, the prophet goes on to tell us the
higher purpose and meaning of a Sabbath:
13 If because of the Sabbath you turn your foot from doing
your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a
delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall
honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your
own pleasure, and speaking your own word, 14 Then you
will take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the
heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of
Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
John 8:28, 29 says,
28... I do nothing on My own initiative, but I SPEAK these
things as the Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me
is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always DO the
things that are pleasing to Him.
Again, in John 12:49 and 50 Jesus says,
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father
Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what
to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that His
commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak,
I speak just as the Father has told Me.
In John 14:10, Jesus says again,
10... The words that I say to you I do not speak on My
own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His
works.
Again, Jesus said in John 9:4, “We must work the
works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day.”
As I said in my last post,
All that Jesus did or said was not of Himself. He had
entered into that “rest” which yet remained for the
people of God. The Sabbath that He kept was the
highest form of Sabbath that God intended for man
from the beginning. It is to cease from one's OWN
works, and desist from speaking one's OWN words.
It is to do only what the Father does and to speak only
the Father's words.
That is the Jubilee rest of Hebrews 4:10.
Revelation 1:16 says of Christ, “out of His mouth
came a sharp two-edged sword.”
What is this “sword”? How does it differ from a carnal
sword? The answer is given in Hosea 6:5, 6 in the NASB,
5 Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of My mouth; and the
judgments on you are like the light that goes forth. 6 For
I delight in loyalty [chesed, “mercy, kindness, or
compassion”] rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge
of God rather than burnt offerings.
Jesus referred to this in Matthew 9:13, saying,
13 But go and learn what this means: “I desire compassion,
and not sacrifice,” for I did not come to call the righteous,
but sinners.
The meaning is this: Men thought that God desired sinners
to be cut apart by a physical sword (or knife) as a sacrifice to
God. And so we see throughout history all the religious wars
where each side is convinced that God desires them to “kill
His enemies.” But if they had understood the mind of God,
they would have seen that God “kills” men not with a physical
sword, but with “the words of my mouth.” That is the sharp
sword that God uses. It is the Sword of the Spirit, which is
the Word of God (Eph. 6:17).
God uses this sword because He delights in mercy, kindness,
and compassion, not in sacrifice. For this reason, He gave
Israel the Word of the Lord through the prophets, who hewed
them in pieces—not by a physical sword, but by the sharp
sword that is the tongue speaking the Word of God.
And so when the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled in Acts 2,
the disciples in the upper room accepted the Sword of the
Spirit. They went out into the street and “killed” 3,000 people
with the Sword of Mercy. This was in direct contrast to the
3,000 who were killed at the base of Mount Sinai by the
Levites in Exodus 32:28. In each case, a sword was used,
but with different results. Under Moses 3,000 men were
subtracted from the church in the wilderness; in the New
Testament 3,000 were added to the Church (Acts 2:41).
And so, in the hands of Spirit-filled Christians, the Word
of God is the most powerful sword in the world. Instead
of killing Canaanites with a physical sword, Christians
are called to “kill the flesh” by means of baptism. The
Great Commission in Mark 16:15-18 is based upon this
Sword of the Spirit and is to be seen as the contrasting
parallel to the command in Joshua's day to kill the
Canaanites.
When all people have been killed by this Sword...then will
they be truly a rest for the people of God.
Logabe
agreement with the scriptures. This subject is a bit
emotional and some Christians get upset because
they know they are right but, as Christians, we must
speak the "Truth In Love". Hebrews 4:2,
2 For indeed we have had good news [the Gospel]
preached to us, just as they also; but the word they
heard did not profit them, because it was not united
by faith in those who heard.
The first thing to note is that the Gospel, “good news,” did
not begin with the New Testament. It was preached to the
Israelites as well. Any word from God is the Gospel,
whether veiled or openly preached with understanding.
The gospel of the cross was preached to Israel by means
of the Passover Lamb and its specific ceremonies. Though
the people did not understand the prophetic significance of
their actions, it still required a certain amount of faith to be
obedient.
To summarize Hebrews 4:2, Israel refused to hear God
(Ex. 20:18-21). Since faith comes by hearing, the result of
their refusal was insufficient faith to enter the Promised
Land the following year. Having Moses tell them what God
said was no substitute for hearing God directly or indirectly.
So they fell short of the promise (vs. 1) because the word
was not united by faith in those who heard at the base of
Mount Sinai.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has
said, “As I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of
the world.
It is assumed everywhere in the New Testament that believers
would be able to hear God's voice and follow the leading of the
Spirit. This is the essence of the Christian life once he or she
has been justified by faith. Whereas Israel had refused to hear
at that Sinai Pentecost, the disciples had gone up to the upper
room to hear His voice in Acts 2. The disciples succeeded
where Israel had failed.
So it was assumed that everyone would be a true Pentecostal
in those days. It was assumed that everyone would at least
strive to follow the example of Caleb and Joshua. It was
assumed that everyone had gotten past Mount Sinai and was
on the way toward the Promised Land to fulfill the feast of
Tabernacles.
The last part of verse 3 connects with verses 4 and 5. In fact,
verses 4 and 5 explain the last part of verse 3:
3... although His works were finished from the foundation
of the world. 4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning
the seventh day, “And God rested on the seventh day from
all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not
enter My rest.”
It is obvious that entering God's rest is the equivalent of
entering the Promised Land. How was this God's rest?
The idea of resting comes from the law of the Sabbaths,
which in turn were based upon the pattern of God's rest
on the seventh day of creation (Gen. 2:2, 3). But the law
expounds further upon this idea, for it sets forth three
levels of rest, each based upon a different type of Sabbath,
as was explained in my earlier post.
The fulfillment of this “rest” or Sabbath is explained in
Hebrews 4:10 and 11,
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself
also rested from his works, as God did from His.
This verse summarizes Isaiah's teaching on the Day of
Atonement and the Jubilee. Isaiah 58 speaks of “the fast
which I have chosen ” (the fast on the Day of Atonement),
showing the intent of God in this. It is not that God is
interested in eating no food on that day, nor does God
delight in people dressing in sackcloth and ashes. He
tells us in Isaiah 58:6 that God intended the Day of
Atonement to be the Jubilee:
6 Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds
of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let
the oppressed go free, and break every yoke?
In verses 13 and 14, the prophet goes on to tell us the
higher purpose and meaning of a Sabbath:
13 If because of the Sabbath you turn your foot from doing
your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a
delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall
honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your
own pleasure, and speaking your own word, 14 Then you
will take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the
heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of
Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
John 8:28, 29 says,
28... I do nothing on My own initiative, but I SPEAK these
things as the Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me
is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always DO the
things that are pleasing to Him.
Again, in John 12:49 and 50 Jesus says,
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father
Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what
to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that His
commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak,
I speak just as the Father has told Me.
In John 14:10, Jesus says again,
10... The words that I say to you I do not speak on My
own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His
works.
Again, Jesus said in John 9:4, “We must work the
works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day.”
As I said in my last post,
All that Jesus did or said was not of Himself. He had
entered into that “rest” which yet remained for the
people of God. The Sabbath that He kept was the
highest form of Sabbath that God intended for man
from the beginning. It is to cease from one's OWN
works, and desist from speaking one's OWN words.
It is to do only what the Father does and to speak only
the Father's words.
That is the Jubilee rest of Hebrews 4:10.
Revelation 1:16 says of Christ, “out of His mouth
came a sharp two-edged sword.”
What is this “sword”? How does it differ from a carnal
sword? The answer is given in Hosea 6:5, 6 in the NASB,
5 Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of My mouth; and the
judgments on you are like the light that goes forth. 6 For
I delight in loyalty [chesed, “mercy, kindness, or
compassion”] rather than sacrifice, and in the knowledge
of God rather than burnt offerings.
Jesus referred to this in Matthew 9:13, saying,
13 But go and learn what this means: “I desire compassion,
and not sacrifice,” for I did not come to call the righteous,
but sinners.
The meaning is this: Men thought that God desired sinners
to be cut apart by a physical sword (or knife) as a sacrifice to
God. And so we see throughout history all the religious wars
where each side is convinced that God desires them to “kill
His enemies.” But if they had understood the mind of God,
they would have seen that God “kills” men not with a physical
sword, but with “the words of my mouth.” That is the sharp
sword that God uses. It is the Sword of the Spirit, which is
the Word of God (Eph. 6:17).
God uses this sword because He delights in mercy, kindness,
and compassion, not in sacrifice. For this reason, He gave
Israel the Word of the Lord through the prophets, who hewed
them in pieces—not by a physical sword, but by the sharp
sword that is the tongue speaking the Word of God.
And so when the feast of Pentecost was fulfilled in Acts 2,
the disciples in the upper room accepted the Sword of the
Spirit. They went out into the street and “killed” 3,000 people
with the Sword of Mercy. This was in direct contrast to the
3,000 who were killed at the base of Mount Sinai by the
Levites in Exodus 32:28. In each case, a sword was used,
but with different results. Under Moses 3,000 men were
subtracted from the church in the wilderness; in the New
Testament 3,000 were added to the Church (Acts 2:41).
And so, in the hands of Spirit-filled Christians, the Word
of God is the most powerful sword in the world. Instead
of killing Canaanites with a physical sword, Christians
are called to “kill the flesh” by means of baptism. The
Great Commission in Mark 16:15-18 is based upon this
Sword of the Spirit and is to be seen as the contrasting
parallel to the command in Joshua's day to kill the
Canaanites.
When all people have been killed by this Sword...then will
they be truly a rest for the people of God.
Logabe
well to be truth fulleveryday we can find god and find the spirit that leads us to do good things that make god happy with us....but there is a speacial factor going on with the sabbath or god would not of made it ..why do you think this one command that has such man made ideas to change, god said remember.even a child can understand that...so yes there is something speacial there that was made for us....and yes giving energy of collective pprayer to the wrong thing has allways been a bad thing with god..............the trap of the sunday thing is greater then what i can say all i can do is have faith that god said it for a reason and man has allways tried to change it or make conterfits of his work.............so i would say just do it god is your teacher.....or let man be [/quote]
So do you feel those who celebrate it on Sunday are void of this same experience?
[/quote]
So do you feel those who celebrate it on Sunday are void of this same experience?
[/quote]
So do you feel those who celebrate it on Sunday are void of this same experience?
[/quote]
[/quote]
bullfighter
why is it you can not hear us
we worship Christ everday
church is simply where two or more gather in his name on any given day in any given place
you are taking your own blind ideas and judging from your own misconceptions
If you only want to worship on Satuday be my guest
but that makes you nothing speacial just someone who only worships one day a week
the Sabbath day has changed over the years the day's of the week were not even named until later in history
Which is why God tells you judge no man by what day they worship that is rest in him ....
borrowed this study to show how wrong it is to base your faith on a day in the solar calander
Understanding the SABBATH DAY
Reasons why this can be confusing is that the Lunar calendar is inconsistent..always changing each year.Unreliable.
Always adding days to the calendar or subtracting days to "so called" regulate the time
Also the days of the week are "named"..SATURNday...SUNday....MOONday..etc...thus PAGAN
So if we are to follow the SABBATH DAY we need to have a reliable set of rules to understand the day,dates,seasons,times,etc.......the only possible source is the SOLAR calendar
Only in modern times do we use the solar calander thus giving us some consistency of every seven days ... The lunar calender used by the Jews was always changing ...the Sabbath could fall on anyday of the week these days were not called by our modern day names ... The Jews practiced a ritual cycle of Sabbath not a Sabbath of named days but cycles of numbers of days
The Year from the spring Spring Equinox moves on...50 days later we come to PENTECOST..which was 2 days long...a 48 hour sabbath ...so for 2 days in a row they had the sabbath..then proceeded to COUNT every day as normal....
So the new Sabbath in rotation would be the very next day...
example using the 2010 yr:
March 20Th "SPRING EQUINOX"...falls on Saturday
Pentecost would be celebrated for 2 days...thus making the...."NEW".. SABBATH day .SUNDAY for the remaining Sabbath for the 7 day cycle.
So every 7Th day would be the SABBATH...until ..Next Yr.....
Every time Pentecost rolled around the "Day" of the week would change to the very next weekday until Pentecost the next year. This way every "Day" had a chance to be the sabbath
Like every seven years it'd be the Saturday sabbath (lasted only one year) then it'd be Sunday's turn to be "IT".....then Monday...Tuesday,,,etc
So trying to base your faith on a single day of the different solar calender is a modern day tradition of men following a calander the early Jews did not even reconize. Sense anyday of the week could be a Sabbath Day according to the lunar calander. and following the cycles ...
God has said I am your rest Sabbath in me everyday this way the Sabbath is never forgotten
So let no confused man tell you Saturday or any one day is the Sabbath.... Hear your Father not foolishness of men
Colossians ch 2: 14 -23
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Understanding the SABBATH DAY
Reasons why this can be confusing is that the Lunar calendar is inconsistent..always changing each year.Unreliable.
Always adding days to the calendar or subtracting days to "so called" regulate the time
Also the days of the week are "named"..SATURNday...SUNday....MOONday..etc...thus PAGAN
So if we are to follow the SABBATH DAY we need to have a reliable set of rules to understand the day,dates,seasons,times,etc.......the only possible source is the SOLAR calendar
Only in modern times do we use the solar calander thus giving us some consistency of every seven days ... The lunar calender used by the Jews was always changing ...the Sabbath could fall on anyday of the week these days were not called by our modern day names ... The Jews practiced a ritual cycle of Sabbath not a Sabbath of named days but cycles of numbers of days
The Year from the spring Spring Equinox moves on...50 days later we come to PENTECOST..which was 2 days long...a 48 hour sabbath ...so for 2 days in a row they had the sabbath..then proceeded to COUNT every day as normal....
So the new Sabbath in rotation would be the very next day...
example using the 2010 yr:
March 20Th "SPRING EQUINOX"...falls on Saturday
Pentecost would be celebrated for 2 days...thus making the...."NEW".. SABBATH day .SUNDAY for the remaining Sabbath for the 7 day cycle.
So every 7Th day would be the SABBATH...until ..Next Yr.....
Every time Pentecost rolled around the "Day" of the week would change to the very next weekday until Pentecost the next year. This way every "Day" had a chance to be the sabbath
Like every seven years it'd be the Saturday sabbath (lasted only one year) then it'd be Sunday's turn to be "IT".....then Monday...Tuesday,,,etc
So trying to base your faith on a single day of the different solar calender is a modern day tradition of men following a calander the early Jews did not even reconize. Sense anyday of the week could be a Sabbath Day according to the lunar calander. and following the cycles ...
God has said I am your rest Sabbath in me everyday this way the Sabbath is never forgotten
So let no confused man tell you Saturday or any one day is the Sabbath.... Hear your Father not foolishness of men
Colossians ch 2: 14 -23
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
tku very much i will give great thought to this and study.before i get back on the sab wagan..also i do not judge you any of you .i am sure you will be with me when the lord comes to gets us or be with us ...however the sunday thing was put there for a reason by them not to be trusted ..and i know everyday is the lords........................
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Thankyou bullfighter for your contributions. They are particularly helpful because you have explained things simply and have not been drawn into the accusation that you are living under the law because you choose to follow the teaching of scripture.
It is very noticable that many today read scripture and speak about it's meaning and then add a cultural imposition or add things that are not even mentioned in scripture. An example in this thread are those that say every day is a sabbath. It is in respect of the sabbath rest but not when it is talking about the seventh day. Most of the time the additions are there to justify what the church does that is not supported by scripture. I have identified 30 things that the church does that is not supported by scripture. I gave it to the leadership of my church as a discussion paper and they were not too pleased with the truth because it interfered with tradition.
Apart from any theological consideration, it seems very clear to me that we are straining at nats and swallowing camels. If it is true that meeting together was changed by Constantine and I have read enough books who say that to believe that is the case, to accomodate the worship of the sun, then I cannot see why meeting together on the seventh day is any more legalistic than meeting on the first day. (I will not use the term worship because the fact is that if you sing a few songs your not worshipping. Worship begins with total surrender to your conqueror and that is Jesus. If your are not totally surrendered, then no amount of singing will constitute worship)
In fact Constantine changed many things to model the church on civil government. He introduced priests who were preachers and paid them, based on the sofists of the day whose attraction was not what they said but how they said it.
Bearing in mind that the seventh day sabbath has the backing of scripture and the first day (or any day) does not , it has the backing of paganism, I cannot see why meeting on the seventh day is such a problem. I think it speaks very loudly that we are very happy to embrace a pagan inspired position, but to embace a scriptural one draws all sorts of derogatory accusations and challenges and copious words to explain away what the scripture says.
Before we dismiss the biblical seventh day sabbath, I believe that we have more responsibility to justify the pagan sunday meeting. So far no one has.
It is very noticable that many today read scripture and speak about it's meaning and then add a cultural imposition or add things that are not even mentioned in scripture. An example in this thread are those that say every day is a sabbath. It is in respect of the sabbath rest but not when it is talking about the seventh day. Most of the time the additions are there to justify what the church does that is not supported by scripture. I have identified 30 things that the church does that is not supported by scripture. I gave it to the leadership of my church as a discussion paper and they were not too pleased with the truth because it interfered with tradition.
Apart from any theological consideration, it seems very clear to me that we are straining at nats and swallowing camels. If it is true that meeting together was changed by Constantine and I have read enough books who say that to believe that is the case, to accomodate the worship of the sun, then I cannot see why meeting together on the seventh day is any more legalistic than meeting on the first day. (I will not use the term worship because the fact is that if you sing a few songs your not worshipping. Worship begins with total surrender to your conqueror and that is Jesus. If your are not totally surrendered, then no amount of singing will constitute worship)
In fact Constantine changed many things to model the church on civil government. He introduced priests who were preachers and paid them, based on the sofists of the day whose attraction was not what they said but how they said it.
Bearing in mind that the seventh day sabbath has the backing of scripture and the first day (or any day) does not , it has the backing of paganism, I cannot see why meeting on the seventh day is such a problem. I think it speaks very loudly that we are very happy to embrace a pagan inspired position, but to embace a scriptural one draws all sorts of derogatory accusations and challenges and copious words to explain away what the scripture says.
Before we dismiss the biblical seventh day sabbath, I believe that we have more responsibility to justify the pagan sunday meeting. So far no one has.
That's what many fail to understand it isn't about any day not Saturday not Sunday nor any other Day
Christ said he is our Rest.. sabbath simply means rest ...we are to rest in him Sabbath in him everyday
we are not to worship one day week but everyday we are to rest in him always.
The Sabbath day was a day of Rest to stop your work and think upon God and thank him.... Christ said he came to fulfill this (become it ) not change it....He is OUR REST OUR SABBATH
Worshing on this day or that day isnt going to save you nor condem you
Who you rest i.e.Sabbath in, and trust in is.
Christ said he is our Rest.. sabbath simply means rest ...we are to rest in him Sabbath in him everyday
we are not to worship one day week but everyday we are to rest in him always.
The Sabbath day was a day of Rest to stop your work and think upon God and thank him.... Christ said he came to fulfill this (become it ) not change it....He is OUR REST OUR SABBATH
Worshing on this day or that day isnt going to save you nor condem you
Who you rest i.e.Sabbath in, and trust in is.
If I can enter into this discussion with some truth here...
I understand what many are saying...and where their diligence and hearts are correct in what day to go or not to go to church...their reasonings are a bit off...
Let me see if I can explain...this is going to be difficult so if you all could please bear with me....we shall take a walk through the bible. (commonly known verses used here...and not incorrect quotes like I have already read above from someone who seems very angry and adamant about legalism...which struck me as kinda odd...but no matter)
In the Ancient Near East....as well as the Modern Eastern cultures..you do not have a worship of a god that is your own. You are picking up the worship that belongs to someone else...usually an ancestor.
God is omnipotent right?
Not one spark from one campfire can ignite unless God actively supports it...your next breath is not at God's acquiecense but at his active support.
So...when God rested after creating the Earth...the sun did rise...water still ran...Adam kept breathing...life went on...so...God didn't really rest as in the terms that we think of it meaning.
Lets look at the genealogies in Genesis as well. Everyone died (except for Enoch)
And after the fall the wickedness of mankind increased drastically. Sin obviously begets more sin..and this far from being created perfect...wheeeeeewwwww Nellie!!!!
So...God had some patriarchs that He showed favor to. Abraham was considered to be God's friend. (an amazing accomplishment) and Abraham's children also had personal relationships with God.
Because in Eastern cultures God exists in Time and for all time they don't think of worship in the same manner we do in westernized cultures. We think of worship as something we do on one day of the week or maybe more often than that and for a set time period and then OUR worship period ends and we go about our other activities....
This is nothing of what a person from a Near Eastern or Eastern culture thinks. They don't own their worship of God...they pick up the worship of God of their forefathers. Because they are responsible for carrying on the worship of God for all time as well as teaching it to their children. (this is why Honor your father and mother comes right after the Sabbath Day commandment....and it was said to adults and not children)
They would live their whole lives as their forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and etc) did...they were the ones who had a personal relationship with God...and not they themselves. So...their forefathers actions (as denoted in the Torah) were lived out on an ongoing basis. It wasn't just the resting on the Seventh day...which spoke to the Jesus who would come...it was their whole lives that was worshipful from the clothes that they wore to the foods that they ate...
If any generation dropped the worship......The Worship of their forefathers was in vain...and proper worship of God would be lost because man only gets more increasingly sinful as each generation comes along.
Now Sabbath means rest/cease.
Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.
When Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath...He in essence was saying that He is the Sabbath. The work of dying on the Cross actually is it...but...it is in his sacrifice that we rest...not a particular day any longer...and that the old covenant was abolished and a new instituted with Jesus' blood...and not the blood of any bull or goat.
The Old Covenant/worship was to cease and a new Covenant/worship was to begin. The Sabbath had come.
Jesus broke the sabbath day regularly(as John says in his Gospel)...and people used to suffer capital punishment for breaking the Sabbath...because in the manner in which it was written the Sabbath was all about Jesus and faith that God would send the "Seed of the woman" (Galatians 3:16). Showing a lack of faith in God sending the Messiah was shown by breaking the Sabbath day...and a lack of faith is always a quick way to die. Abraham believed God (had faith in God) and it was credited to him as righteousness. Faith is what brings us righteousness...not following any specific day of the week as the day we go to church. The works covenant is over...there is a new one...and trying to follow the old one is futile at best because there is no Temple in Jerusalem...only a mosque where the Temple once stood.
So...because the early church understood this....they began to meet on the first day of the week. (in Jewish custom the first of anything always belonged to God and was untouchable, unidentified, and uncounted.)
Even the Aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet wasn't pronounced. All lists detailing the schedules at the Temple started at two.
And that is why we, today, except for a few nutballs go to church on Sundays...because we now all can have a personal relationship with God and touch the once untouchable....with the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
I understand what many are saying...and where their diligence and hearts are correct in what day to go or not to go to church...their reasonings are a bit off...
Let me see if I can explain...this is going to be difficult so if you all could please bear with me....we shall take a walk through the bible. (commonly known verses used here...and not incorrect quotes like I have already read above from someone who seems very angry and adamant about legalism...which struck me as kinda odd...but no matter)
In the Ancient Near East....as well as the Modern Eastern cultures..you do not have a worship of a god that is your own. You are picking up the worship that belongs to someone else...usually an ancestor.
God is omnipotent right?
Not one spark from one campfire can ignite unless God actively supports it...your next breath is not at God's acquiecense but at his active support.
So...when God rested after creating the Earth...the sun did rise...water still ran...Adam kept breathing...life went on...so...God didn't really rest as in the terms that we think of it meaning.
Lets look at the genealogies in Genesis as well. Everyone died (except for Enoch)
And after the fall the wickedness of mankind increased drastically. Sin obviously begets more sin..and this far from being created perfect...wheeeeeewwwww Nellie!!!!
So...God had some patriarchs that He showed favor to. Abraham was considered to be God's friend. (an amazing accomplishment) and Abraham's children also had personal relationships with God.
Because in Eastern cultures God exists in Time and for all time they don't think of worship in the same manner we do in westernized cultures. We think of worship as something we do on one day of the week or maybe more often than that and for a set time period and then OUR worship period ends and we go about our other activities....
This is nothing of what a person from a Near Eastern or Eastern culture thinks. They don't own their worship of God...they pick up the worship of God of their forefathers. Because they are responsible for carrying on the worship of God for all time as well as teaching it to their children. (this is why Honor your father and mother comes right after the Sabbath Day commandment....and it was said to adults and not children)
They would live their whole lives as their forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and etc) did...they were the ones who had a personal relationship with God...and not they themselves. So...their forefathers actions (as denoted in the Torah) were lived out on an ongoing basis. It wasn't just the resting on the Seventh day...which spoke to the Jesus who would come...it was their whole lives that was worshipful from the clothes that they wore to the foods that they ate...
If any generation dropped the worship......The Worship of their forefathers was in vain...and proper worship of God would be lost because man only gets more increasingly sinful as each generation comes along.
Now Sabbath means rest/cease.
Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.
When Jesus said that He was the Lord of the Sabbath...He in essence was saying that He is the Sabbath. The work of dying on the Cross actually is it...but...it is in his sacrifice that we rest...not a particular day any longer...and that the old covenant was abolished and a new instituted with Jesus' blood...and not the blood of any bull or goat.
The Old Covenant/worship was to cease and a new Covenant/worship was to begin. The Sabbath had come.
Jesus broke the sabbath day regularly(as John says in his Gospel)...and people used to suffer capital punishment for breaking the Sabbath...because in the manner in which it was written the Sabbath was all about Jesus and faith that God would send the "Seed of the woman" (Galatians 3:16). Showing a lack of faith in God sending the Messiah was shown by breaking the Sabbath day...and a lack of faith is always a quick way to die. Abraham believed God (had faith in God) and it was credited to him as righteousness. Faith is what brings us righteousness...not following any specific day of the week as the day we go to church. The works covenant is over...there is a new one...and trying to follow the old one is futile at best because there is no Temple in Jerusalem...only a mosque where the Temple once stood.
So...because the early church understood this....they began to meet on the first day of the week. (in Jewish custom the first of anything always belonged to God and was untouchable, unidentified, and uncounted.)
Even the Aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet wasn't pronounced. All lists detailing the schedules at the Temple started at two.
And that is why we, today, except for a few nutballs go to church on Sundays...because we now all can have a personal relationship with God and touch the once untouchable....with the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
I would tend to agree strongly with Christina that since the New Testament believer is under grace, not law, one can't go back and put the believer under the Old Testament law. The church is not Israel, as I read the New Testament.
The whole issue of Sabbatarianism is a hermeneutic / interpretation matter. Those who do try to put believers under grace back under the law (which was perfectly fulfilled by Christ) often end up being rather selective.
For example, the internet is a time-zone-free zone, yet some ppl try to insist that businesses run by Christians doing international sales fix their internet sales sites to block off access peridodically in case someone somewhere in the world tries to access the site on the so-called Sabbath in their time zone (yes, there are folks who try to pressurize others to do this).
For example, also, some clean shaven preachers will try to apply Leviticus 19's reference to 'cutting for the dead' and guilt manipulate young ladies who want to ink-over their tattoos of their ex-bfs' names with tattoos of a Biblical design, yet will tie themselves into knots if the young ladies wonder why, if so, they also don't take to heart the verse in the same chapter which refers to not trimming the corners of one beard.
Old Testament Jews in the land under the law, and New Testament Christians under grace are distinct, I would submit. Galatians, and elsewhere in the NT, makes this clear.
The whole issue of Sabbatarianism is a hermeneutic / interpretation matter. Those who do try to put believers under grace back under the law (which was perfectly fulfilled by Christ) often end up being rather selective.
For example, the internet is a time-zone-free zone, yet some ppl try to insist that businesses run by Christians doing international sales fix their internet sales sites to block off access peridodically in case someone somewhere in the world tries to access the site on the so-called Sabbath in their time zone (yes, there are folks who try to pressurize others to do this).
For example, also, some clean shaven preachers will try to apply Leviticus 19's reference to 'cutting for the dead' and guilt manipulate young ladies who want to ink-over their tattoos of their ex-bfs' names with tattoos of a Biblical design, yet will tie themselves into knots if the young ladies wonder why, if so, they also don't take to heart the verse in the same chapter which refers to not trimming the corners of one beard.
Old Testament Jews in the land under the law, and New Testament Christians under grace are distinct, I would submit. Galatians, and elsewhere in the NT, makes this clear.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I haven't been around for long time so I have only just read this post of yours Bullfighter. I would like to thankyou for such a clear and concise explanation. I am going to be starting a fellowship over the next few weeks. We are going to meet on Saturday afternoon, initially in homes. After much study on the subject, it is very clear that the sabbath keeping is stilll valid the same as the other nine commandments are. Jesus said, "If you love me, keeep my commandments." I realise now that what Jesus did away with was not the 10 commandments. He did away with the ordinances written up in Leviticus.
From your study notes and others that I have read, It is clear to me that sunday worship is not sanctioned by scripture no more than christmas and easter is and keeping the sabbath is not being under the law as some insist, the same as not murdering keeps us under the law. With your permission, I will give everyone a copy of your study that attends.
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