@michaelvpardo I think the point is also that the Acts of the Apostles is a transitional book...
We do have in Scripture an abiding record of 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude).
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We do have in Scripture an abiding record of 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude).
I've seen manifestations of some of the gifts in church assemblies that were neither Pentecostal or charismatic and while it seemed reasonable to me that God, who does not change, would enable His children for ministry according to His promises, it did take the congregations somewhat by surprise. I've experienced some pretty unbelievable things in the presence of secular people while sharing biblical truth as well, but spontaneously, even when silencing unclean spirits (it's awesome what the name of Jesus can do when evoked in faith.)
"He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
I really don't get it. Why would anyone call themselves "Christian" and not believe Jesus Christ?
It boggles my mind ( though these days my mind is easily boggled.)
@michaelvpardo Well, I do think the sign gifts in Acts were for the period before the complete Scriptures were available; we now have complete and sufficient authority to declare the whole counsel of God (Acts 20.27).
The question is why do you think that? Is it because God has shown you in scripture that He would stop building His church in the power of the Holy Spirit? Or did you hear it as doctrine introduced by the adversary of God, to undermine faith in God's word and reduce the church to apostasy?
@michaelvpardo I do have the strong presupposition that Scripture is powerful and sufficient; there are lots of Scriptures to confirm this. I know some ppl think otherwise, but in the end when the presuppositions are different, the discussion ends up going round in circles, really, I think...
"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
I see no point in arguing for the truth of God's word, His word needs no defense. His promises are irrevocable, His character does not change, His word is eternal and true, but His adversary casts doubt.
@michaelvpardo Anyway I don't think that the powerful Word is insufficient or that we need to add to it...
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Majority of the theology here is Ramen
Maybe. But there's occasionally some good stuff, too : )
Not enough... that's a strange way to put it. I suppose I could be happy enough without gifts like prophecy; I love the word, and could subsist on it alone forever really. But to say I should go without it when it is a very real part of my life is like saying, "You may like roast beef, but you must only have steak. Both are available to you but only one is healthy." It's a weird thing to say for me. I think it would have been just as weird to the New Testament saints or even the Old Testament ones, because both had prophets in their midst, and God never told them not to listen to the words of the prophets. It's just a strange request.
Yeah, well here is where you should kinda get up to speed. I've had Cessationists in the past try to bait me with this question before, and you can't honestly think an intelligent person is going to fall for this do you? I mean, no offense, but if you are approaching the issue from the iron clad assumption that there are no such thing as modern prophets, you will simply dig up whatever dirt you can find (and even things made up) on whoever I would name, yes? I can go through the entire list of sinners in both the Old and New Testament for you of people you could find dirt on as well, including the Lord Jesus Christ Himself if you were so inclined. It's like the Pharisees, who hated the Lord Jesus Christ, baiting Him with questions about being a winebibber and casting out demons by the power of Satan and a whole list of other things. If their minds are made up already, where is the wisdom in answering?
The sound doctrine of the NT involved the churches operating in supernatural gifts (1 Corinthians 12-14). Unsound doctrine would be teaching a "Christianity" that was divorced from it.
But look, I've been around the block with Cessationists so many times that my head is still spinning, and so I know it would be an utter waste of time for both of us, and I value you as a brother in Christ enough to leave it that your time could and should be spent better elsewhere, and I can most certainly promise you that mine would as well. So let's forego it. We both know it will be a merry go round, and as spiritual grown ups like us know, we should stay off of the kiddie rides as much as possible.
God bless, and hope you don't take offense.
Hidden In Him
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Yes, well I was going to ask him that as well, LoL. I was being facetious : ) I don't recall a specific list of supernatural gifts being given to the apostles either, but whatever they were they must not have included prophecy, because the prophets themselves also prophesied, and that would mean it was not exclusively to be termed "the gifts of the apostles."
It's a mysterious world we live in when it comes to the myriad of wondrous theological positions being presented out there, but I've never heard the term used before either.
They are called "the signs of an apostle", which may legitimately be considered apostolic gifts.
I [Paul] am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
Paul was constantly facing enemies and opponents in the churches where he ministered, and he had to remind the churches that he was truly an apostle, and "in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles". The ultimate proof of his legitimacy was that he also performed signs, wonders, mighty deeds, and miracles (and they all are not necessarily recorded in the NT).
That these miracle-working powers were given to the apostles to authenticate their ministries as well as the divine origin of the Gospel is stated in Hebrew 2:3,4: How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
This was according to the promise of Christ before His ascension in Acts 1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Simply put, the extraordinary gifts of miracles / healing / raising the dead are not present in our current time as there are no more Apostles living.
And have you raised someone from the dead? Has your shadow landed on someone and they were healed? Opened the blind eyes? I doubt it.
Lol, I'm "baiting" you? Sounds more like you know these "prophets" are full of it and don't want to be exposed or have them exposed. Anyone who lights a lamp doesn't keep it hidden....Why the secrecy?
Years ago I use to be a supporter of the whole charismatic / word of faith / movement, that was until I took a very close look at scripture and these "pastors" I was listening too. So, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to continue the conversation and truly investigate and hold these "pastors / prophets" accountable for the lies they're sharing. Have I changed my mind? Yes, but it wasn't from this forum, it was from the Word of God.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I just answered you, and in light of your response you obviously weren't listening : )
Take care, man. Some day when you can have a two-way conversation we'll pick it up then.
God bless!
- H
Your questions to me to validate or invalidate your belief is the same as what the Pharisees and Saducees did to Jesus. I have NO power to do anything...I am His vessel for Him to manifest HIS power through.
Your unbelief and lack of faith along with false teaching will not serve you well in the coming days. It will be the Holy Spirit in us and manifesting through us that will enable us to go forth and conquer.
But saying anything to you is like beating a dead horse expecting it to get up and perform its duties.
It's a waste of time, I have no tolerance at this time in my life to attempt sharing His Truth with mockers and scorners especially when there are hundreds of people hungry for His Truth and able to have faith in a God who can use His people to manifest healing, deliverance, and truth.
So get on down the road with your unbelief....You try to portray yourself as an intelligent and knowledgeable person of His Word but you are deceived by your own puffed up knowledge that thinks they are never in err of their truth.
Emphasis...Their truth...not God's.
The signs of an apostle simply means this is how you will recognize them.....much like the scripture that says we will know them by their fruits.
I don't believe any Christian has the right to undermine or minimize "the signs of an apostle" in this matter.
The reason Paul specifically calls them "the signs of an apostle" is because God and Christ wanted the world to know that they had given these men miracle-working powers to prove that they were truly apostle-prophets and that the Gospel was truly from God.
Miracle-working powers through prophets were not seen within Israel on a continuous basis. Moses, Elijah, and Elisha stand out. But Jesus of Nazareth would show Israel through His miracles that He was not only the Prophet whose coming was prophesied by Moses, but He was also their true Messiah -- "a Man approved of God". Hence Peter says in Acts 2:22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
What is noteworthy in the New Testament is that although the apostles must have also performed probably hundreds of miracles, the Holy Spirit saw fit to only present a few of them for the apostles -- but not for Christ. This would indicate that the reader's attention must always be on Christ (and this was also the goal of the apostles).
With the passing of the apostles the sign gifts as well as the spiritual gifts of apostle and prophet ceased. All those who claimed these gifts later on proved themselves to be false (e.g. Joseph Smith).
Not to nitpick but the word "apostle" actually only means " sent one" and at least some translations use a capital A as in Apostle to distinguish the original 12 from the rest.
No Apostle ever did those things, God did them as signs to display his power through them, but you do know that apostle simply means "sent one" and that some translations actually capitalize the word when referring to the original 12 to distinguish them from you or I should God call us to be sent out in ministry, right?
Classic Word of Faith comebacks: #1 Lack of faith. #2 You're a Pharisee.
Let me know when you heal the blind.
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